Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
You can not be serious by saying Obi Wan is smarter than Mace?
I believe this is stated in ROTS. Perhaps another source.
Wonder why Yoda thought it wouldn't even be worth the effort for Obi Wan to fight Sidious.
Because cunning hardly means powerful. Surely you can see the difference in those two words.
Anakin is not as skilled as Mace, nor as powerful.
Agreed.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Actually if you read the whole quote, it continues "Anakin would have defeated the emporer had he not got all beat up"also you have to remember Vapaad'ds advantage on darksiders is what allows him to compete with Sidious. He couldnt for example compete anywhere near as well against Yoda who was virtually Sidious's equal.
I think that means that Anakin would EVENTUALLY surpass Sidious had he not been burned, but not at the moment.
Sorry, don't have time to discuss other points...
Originally posted by truejediThat's not what GL said TJ. It's basically the general idea of If Anakin hadn't had the incident on mustafar, he would have surpassed Sidious.
Lucas said "had he not got all beat up?" Could i get a link to that please? Not only does it not make any sense, its poor grammar.
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
I think that means that Anakin would EVENTUALLY surpass Sidious had he not been burned, but not at the moment.Sorry, don't have time to discuss other points...
No worries.
I know what people "think" and "assume" he meant.. im just pointing out that unless we can sit with george and ask exactly what he meant we cant really take everything he says a face value...
For example in one quote he says OT Vader is useless cause hes basicllay a cripple, but then in another quote he says OT Vader is 80% as Powerful as OT Sidious.
Anyway doesnt matter i agree Mace is better with the Force so wins the Force fight, and I agree Mace wins Sabers since Vapaad would be the end of Anakin's Rage.
All im saying is anyone powerful enough to take out Dooku should be in Mace's league in terms of Power and Skill (in Saber fight at least).
Originally posted by DARTH POWERWere both statements made concurrently, or at different periods of time? The policy with contradictory canon material is to take the most recent work as the assumed event (at least until it's officially settled), the same can be applied to statements. Lucas' opinions towards Vader or Sidious at one point in time, say during 1999, could have changed circa 2005.
I know what people "think" and "assume" he meant.. im just pointing out that unless we can sit with george and ask exactly what he meant we cant really take everything he says a face value...
For example in one quote he says OT Vader is useless cause hes basicllay a cripple, but then in another quote he says OT Vader is 80% as Powerful as OT Sidious.
Vader is more powerful, hands down. Unfortunately, Mace Windu's experience, and Vaapad would probably put Anakin down.
Anakin is arguably just as skilled with a blade as Mace Windu, as demonstrated when he literally disarms Count Dooku in 10 seconds, and cuts down Cin Drallig with one hand while using the other to Force choke his padawan. He's a master of a form devoted specifically to saber dueling, so I can't see him going down easily -- at the least. He'd be a fierce opponent for Windu.
In terms of power, Anakin is confirmed to be greater than 80% of the Emperor. He's stated to be stronger than OT Vader, and, from the way its described, by far:
This is how it feels to be Anakin Skywalker, forever:And you rage and scream and reach through the Force to crush the shadow who has destroyed you, but you are so far less now than what you were, you are more than half machine, you are like a painter gone blind, a composer gone deaf, you can remember where the power was but the power you can touch is only a memory, and so with all your world-destroying fury it is only droids around you that implode, and equipment, and the table on which you were strapped shatters, and in the end, you cannot touch the shadow.
His abilities with TK are shown to be majorly impressive, such as when he brings down a 200 ft. statue, and lobs the gigantic headpiece through 200 ft., durasteel-reinforced doors with enough force to continue traveling nigh undiminished during Knightfall.
---
The simple fact is that the ROTS novelization covers everything needed to know about Anakin's psyche, and how it effects his power. If you have any questions about that, read the entirety of the passages below, and not breeze through it.
So, you're going to say, "ADVENT, COME ON. SERIOUSLY?! SERIOUSLY?! ANAKIN HAS NEVER SHOWN HIMSELF TO BE THAT STRONG!". Then, you have to understand something:
"They didn't even comprehend how utterly he dominated the combat. Because they fought as they had been trained, by releasing all desire and allowing the Force to flow through them, they had no hope of countering Dooku's mastery of Sith techniques They had learned nothing since he had bested them on Geonosis.They allowed the Force to direct them; Dooku directed the Force."
What makes Dooku, Yoda, Mace, Sidious, and all other powerhouses so strong is that they can DIRECT the Force, bend it to their will; whereas guys like Obi-Wan, Kit Fisto, Qui-Gon, let the Force guide their actions.
Now, Anakin, during the beginning of the duel was letting the Force guide him, as seen above. But, halfway through, he INSTINCTIVELY learns how to direct the Force. That is why "his decision was reality", that is why "the boy was a natural", and that is why "even [Dooku's] knowledge of the Force had become a joke". The proof that he had achieved such a command over the Force would be this:
"Only he stands between death and the two men he loves best in all the world, and he can no longer afford to hold anything back. That imaginary dead-star dragon tries its best to freeze away his strength, to whisper him that Dooku has beaten him before, that Dooku has all the power of the darkness, to remind him how Dooku took his hand, how Dooku could strike down even Obi-Wan himself seemingly without effort and now Anakin is all alone and he will never be a match for any Lord of the Sith-But Palpatine's words rage is your weapon have given Anakin permission to unseal the shielding around his furnace heart, and all his fears and all his doubts shrivel in its flame.His head has been filled with the smoke from his smothered heart for far too long; it has been the thunder that darkens his mind. On Aargonar, on Jabiim, in the Tusken camp on Tatooine, that smoke had clouded his mind, had blinded him and left him flailing in the dark, a mindless machine of slaughter; but here now, within this ship, this microscopic cell of life in the infinite sterile desert of space, his firewalls have opened so that the terror and the rage are out there, in the fight instead of in his head, and Anakin's mind is clear as a crystal bell.
In that pristine clarity, there is only one thing he must do. Decide. So he does. He decides to win. He decides that Dooku should lose the same hand he took. Decision is reality."
So, ROTS Anakin is at a level that we've never seen at any point before in his life. You could say the process was similar to the way Goku becomes a Super Saiyan against Frieza.
Or, you might say, "BUT, ADVENT, OBI-WAN DID TEH FORCE PUSH STALEMATE!". Well, there were actually two fights going on at Mustafar. One was between Anakin and Obi-Wan, and the other was between Anakin and Anakin in his head. After he slaughtered the Separatists on Mustafar, we see him crying. It is elaborated upon in the novel that the weakness he had, his greatest fear, came to bite him in the ass. See here:
"He could feel his power growing, indeed. He had the measure of his "Master" already; not long after Palpatine shared the secret of Darth Plagueis's discovery, their relationship would undergo a sudden . . . transformation.A fatal transformation. Everything was proceeding according to plan. And yet . . .
He couldn't shake a certain creeping sensation ... a kind of cold, slimy ooze that slithered up the veins of his legs and spread clammy tendrils through his guts . . . Almost as though he was still afraid . . .
She will die, you know, the dragon whispered.
He shook himself, scowling. Impossible. He was Darth Vader. Fear had no power over him. He had destroyed his fear.
All things die.
Yet it was as though when he had crushed the dragon under his boot, the dragon had sunk venomed fangs into his heel. Now its poison chilled him to the bone.
Even stars burn out."
Anakin's fear was something he shed when he was fighting Dooku, and, when he was executing Order 66. It rears its ugly head, though, before he ends up fighting Obi-Wan. This is why he didn't whoop Kenobi's ass more so than he did, and made that arrogant mistake at the end of the duel. He couldn't maintain the mindset that he had before, which was "I'm doing this to protect Padme". Hence, why he ends up choking her out. That wasn't Vader in his prime vs. Obi-Wan, it was a broken, confused, and mentally imbalanced man fully warped by the dark side vs. Obi-Wan.
The last line in that passage is important, because that is what messes Anakin up so much. The fact that everything dies, and you can't stop it. The fact that he'll lose everything he loves one day. Padme. Obi-Wan. Himself. It's "the dragon", described here:
"Except-Fear lives inside him anyway, chewing away the firewalls around his heart.Anakin sometimes thinks of the dread that eats at his heart as a dragon. Children on Tatooine tell each other of the dragons that live inside the suns; smaller cousins of the sun-dragons are supposed to live inside the fusion furnaces that power everything from starships to Podracers.
But Anakin's fear is another kind of dragon. A cold kind. A dead kind.
Not nearly dead enough.
Not long after he became Obi-Wan's Padawan, all those years ago, a minor mission had brought them to a dead system: one so immeasurably old that its star had long ago turned to a frigid dwarf of hypercompacted trace metals, hovering a quantum fraction of a degree above absolute zero. Anakin couldn't even remember what the mission might have been, but he'd never forgotten that dead star.
It had scared him.
"Stars can die-?"
"It is the way of the universe, which is another manner of saying that it is the will of the Force," Obi-Wan had told him. "Everything dies. In time, even stars burn out. This is why Jedi form no attachments: all things pass. To hold on to something-or someone-beyond its time is to set your selfish desires against the Force. That is a path of misery, Anakin; the Jedi do not walk it."
That is the kind of fear that lives inside Anakin Skywalker: the dragon of that dead star. It is an ancient, cold dead voice within his heart that whispers all things die . . .
In bright day he can't hear it; battle, a mission, even a report before the Jedi Council, can make him forget it's even there. But at night-At night, the walls he has built sometimes start to frost over. Sometimes they start to crack.
At night, the dead-star dragon sometimes sneaks through the cracks and crawls up into his brain and chews at the inside of his skull. The dragon whispers of what Anakin has lost. And what he will lose.
The dragon reminds him, every night, of how he held his dying mother in his arms, of how she had spent her last strength to say I knew you would come for me, Anakin . . .
The dragon reminds him, every night, that someday he will lose Obi-Wan. He will lose Padme. Or they will lose him.
All things die, Anakin Skywalker. Even stars burn out. . ."
It is what made him imbalanced against Obi-Wan. It's why he lost. His actions during Knightfall were something he regretted after the fact. He regretted them, because as George Lucas has stated, it was after the fact that the light side inside himself caused him to struggle over what he'd done (hence, the crying).
The Chosen One was mentally disturbed, because of his tragic past. This passage details that, as well as why Anakin fell to the dark side. He couldn't detach himself from his feelings. It explains the type of deranged mindset that he had against Obi-Wan.
^ That happens to be my favorite passages from the novel, as well! It's saddening, but true.
---
With all that out of the way, Mace still probably wins more often than not due to Vaapad, and possibly shatterpoint if he can find one exploitable in combat.
Advent
His abilities with TK are shown to be majorly impressive, such as when he brings down a 200 ft. statue, and lobs the gigantic headpiece through 200 ft., durasteel-reinforced doors with enough force to continue traveling nigh undiminished during Knightfall.
He couldn't use the Force to pry open a damn door in Labyrinth of Evil, and was visibly frustrated at the futility of doing so -- summoning a demolitions team instead.
The Complete Star Wars Enyclopedia makes it abundantly clear that the only way one can achieve a proficient command of the Force is through meditation, training, and study. Anakin Skywalker was about the farthest thing from a scholar as one can get. His natural connection to the Force clearly afforded him greater power than most, but someone like Yoda or Palpatine would hand Anakin -- in his prime or unbalanced -- his ass. It would be an effortless curbstomp. Let's not get carried away flaunting his powers. It's inconsistent and hazardous; he has no control or technique whatsoever.
Originally posted by Gideon
The Complete Star Wars Enyclopedia makes it abundantly clear that the [b]only way one can achieve a proficient command of the Force is through meditation, training, and study.[/B]
That would only qualify meditation, training, and study as requirements for a proficient command of the Force, it doesn't expand on their value as factors for the extent of proficiency.
Anakin, as an individual who has been trained in the Jedi ways, most certainly meets that requirement, and as we've seen in a lot of cases in the Star Wars Mythology, comparatively high levels of natural ability and learning potential can prove to be far greater determinants than comparatively high levels of training and study in reaching a comparatively high level of ability (Darth Bane, Exar Kun, Nomi Sunrider, Ulic Qel-Droma etc).
Read the part about him being unable -- and frustrated at his failure -- to open a door. Later in the same book, he collapses the ceiling of an enormous room by a Force-amplified shout.
He is not refined. Palpatine and Yoda's technique are each lightyears ahead of Anakin's, and they would curbstomp him in a fight. His natural ability only allows him to be a threat in certain circumstances; it's the exception, not the rule.
I give it to Pre-Suit Anakin. he defeated Dooku who was roughly the same skill as Mace Windu and note that Dooku had more experience.
Mace Windu has Vaapad but Anakin is also a Master at his own style Djem So. It would not be a curbstomp for either one but I say Anakin gets it because Mace Windu severely underestimates Anakin and refuses to notice his potential. So Anakin has the element of suprise
Originally posted by Gideon
He couldn't use the Force to pry open a damn door in Labyrinth of Evil, and was visibly frustrated at the futility of doing so -- summoning a demolitions team instead.
And yet at other times he can crush a room with a mere scream. Just because his TK is inconsistent in the extent of its power doesnt mean we just completely ignore it.
At his most conflicted he matched Obi-wan in a force contest.. So his offensive Force powers are at least a match for Obi-wans. However at times he has shown his TK to be beyond his master's by fair bit....
For example besides force crushing Durasteel with his scream, Hes also completley dominated Ventress with the Force, trapping her in cables and electrocuting her. She had no power to stop him. He also used the Force quite a bit when he killed Durge first by Forcing explosives on him, then by Forcing him into a pod and forcing the pod into a star.
Finally he took many Force attacks off Dooku during the CW movie and kept getting back up and kept on fighting.. Weve seen in ROTS Obiwan cant take the same beating from Dooku's Force attacks. That speaks volumes for Anakin's natural Force defences. And if you read the ROTS novel once Anakin decided to win against Dooku, Dooku actually did try using the Force on him. He used his TK to chuck something at Anakin which Anakin "Simply Smashed Aside."
Everything iv wrote here is just fact, seen either on screen or in some other cannon source. But the conclusion you make of it is up2 u. But to just discard Anakins TK feats completely when comparing him to a powerhouse like Windu is frankly quite biased and not Objective reasoning.
Originally posted by Gideon
Palpatine and Yoda's technique are each lightyears ahead of Anakin's, and they would curbstomp him in a fight.
No one claimed Anakin to be a match in the Force for Yoda or the Emporer. Where did they come from. Even Windu or Dooku would get curbstomped by Yoda or the Emporer in a Pure Force Fight.
Originally posted by MasterAshenVor
I give it to Pre-Suit Anakin. he defeated Dooku who was roughly the same skill as Mace Windu and note that Dooku had more experience.Mace Windu has Vaapad but Anakin is also a Master at his own style Djem So. It would not be a curbstomp for either one but I say Anakin gets it because Mace Windu severely underestimates Anakin and refuses to notice his potential. So Anakin has the element of suprise
I severely underestimate RN's helping skills and refuse to notice his potential. Does that mean he is a better helper than me? =>
Spoiler:Logic fail. Besides, Mace Windu certainly acknowledges Anakin's strength in the Force.
No.
Sorry Nemesis, just needed a good example.
Originally posted by DARTH POWERIt's not about disregarding his feats, it's about negating the perception that he has a refined technique of telekinesis. Like his mood and personality, his command over his powers swings between studious and being a result of coarse impulse. Anakin has the raw power necessary to complete such arduous tasks, but he often times lacks the discipline and patience to see it through.
And yet at other times he can crush a room with a mere scream. Just because his TK is inconsistent in the extent of its power doesnt mean we just completely ignore it.At his most conflicted he matched Obi-wan in a force contest.. So his offensive Force powers are at least a match for Obi-wans. However at times he has shown his TK to be beyond his master's by fair bit....
For example besides force crushing Durasteel with his scream, Hes also completley dominated Ventress with the Force, trapping her in cables and electrocuting her. She had no power to stop him. He also used the Force quite a bit when he killed Durge first by Forcing explosives on him, then by Forcing him into a pod and forcing the pod into a star.
Finally he took many Force attacks off Dooku during the CW movie and kept getting back up and kept on fighting.. Weve seen in ROTS Obiwan cant take the same beating from Dooku's Force attacks. That speaks volumes for Anakin's natural Force defences. And if you read the ROTS novel once Anakin decided to win against Dooku, Dooku actually did try using the Force on him. He used his TK to chuck something at Anakin which Anakin "Simply Smashed Aside."
Everything iv wrote here is just fact, seen either on screen or in some other cannon source. But the conclusion you make of it is up2 u. But to just discard Anakins TK feats completely when comparing him to a powerhouse like Windu is frankly quite biased and not Objective reasoning.