how would god answering your prayer remove any of that choice?
you are still choosing to ask God for help down your chosen path. In fact, by that definition, wouldn't not answering the prayer interfere more with free will?
also, I was using the common Western philosophical definition of free will. Technically, even with all possible choices, if God has foreknowledge of which choice you will make, it is not congruent with free will, in that tradition.
Originally posted by lord xyz
I think it's a case of, he knows all possible outcomes, but you have the choice which one to take.
Holy shit.
This is actually a very intelligent comment.
This is how I perceive it, as well. God knows all possible realities as they are one eternal now, with him.
However, all of those realities to condense into one "reality" string until the person experiences it. The actions of others and the self condense these realities in the one "string."
This thinks of it as a linear construct based on time. I don't have a good theory as to how God is outside of our time and can see some realities disappearing from his "hand" as his children make their decisions.
I hate to say that God works in mysterious ways, but, I still haven't thought of how the realities condense into one string reality, while God is still aware of all possible realities, but not aware of the specific path that we take. There has to be some sort of resolution, chronologically, that accounts for this linear progression, while also preserving God's "outside of our time" perception. I think that if his perception was at the 7th dimensional level, He can accomplish that, but, our "time" is "one eternal now" to his perception........meaning our realities have already panned out and coalesced into one string for God, exit in their expanded forms, and are in the process of condensing, all at an infinity small instance. That means God would be aware of the outcome of each lives' string, right?
So, how to we account for him not know what our string is until it's happened in our reality? Someone help me bridge the gap...as I may have talked myself into confusion.
Originally posted by inimalistMy point is, if God helps you, where is the free will?
how would god answering your prayer remove any of that choice?you are still choosing to ask God for help down your chosen path. In fact, by that definition, wouldn't not answering the prayer interfere more with free will?
also, I was using the common Western philosophical definition of free will. Technically, even with all possible choices, if God has foreknowledge of which choice you will make, it is not congruent with free will, in that tradition.
Free will, my understanding, is complete absence of God. God does not interfere or control your life. So when you pray for a promotion, and get one, is that earning a promotion by yourself? Or is it God playing favourites? How can it be free will if you're being helped by a supernatural being?
Originally posted by lord xyzThis does not even make sense.
My point is, if God helps you, where is the free will?Free will, my understanding, is complete absence of God. God does not interfere or control your life. So when you pray for a promotion, and get one, is that earning a promotion by yourself? Or is it God playing favourites? How can it be free will if you're being helped by a supernatural being?
Unless "God" forces these things than it can be understandable.
But you first initiated a prayer (on your own free will) how does god helping that person in anyway affect someone's free will? Especially since that person initiated the whole ordeal.
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
So when you ask your well connected father-in-law for a promotion, and get one, is that earning a promotion by yourself? Or is it a higher up playing favorites? How can it be free will if you're being helped by asupernaturalwell-connected human being?How is this any different?
that may be an issue of earning or merit, but not of free will
this is close to saying going to the doctor when you are sick is a violation of free will.
Free will?
Definition : the apparent human ability to make choices that are not externally determined.
The problem I see with free will is that it does not exist. Any choice you make is dependent on external circumstances. Should I have a piece of cake or not is dependent on rather there is cake available in the first place.
Let us examine the idea in a more abstract way. We have the choice to do right or wrong. However, right and wrong are dependent on external circumstances. For example steeling is wrong, unless you are starving to death and you steel food to eat. So, the choice to do right is based your circumstances at the time.
Therefore, we do not have free will to begin with. This makes the question of this thread moot.
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
The only person listening while you pray is yourself. Fortunately, it turns out that the only person who can do anything about your prays is also yourself. Therefore, if there is something you are praying for, then get off your butt and do something about it.
Wow... this is new... I equally agree and disagree with this statement... but, really the disagreement only comes down to religious differences. I mean I believe that there is a God listening... somewhere, but to me prayer isn't a magic wand to get God to do what you want.
In most cases, for example if you prayed for the knowledge to pass an exam God's answer would be more of a, ok, your book is right behind you, get to studying you already have what you need.
But, once again that comes down to religious differences. I do believe that the most that comes out of prayers such as that is a nudge in the correct direction. Personally, I view prayer as a connection to God in hopes of coming to more understand God. But, like I said, that's my own religious viewes, take it for what it is.
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Free will?Definition : the apparent human ability to make choices that are not externally determined.
The problem I see with free will is that it does not exist. Any choice you make is dependent on external circumstances. Should I have a piece of cake or not is dependent on rather there is cake available in the first place.
Let us examine the idea in a more abstract way. We have the choice to do right or wrong. However, right and wrong are dependent on external circumstances. For example steeling is wrong, unless you are starving to death and you steel food to eat. So, the choice to do right is based your circumstances at the time.
Therefore, we do not have free will to begin with. This makes the question of this thread moot.
Meh, not entirely. Yes our choices are impacted by external factors, but not always determined by external factors. For example, Right now I have the choice of posting a message or not, obviously I chose, by my own free will, to post this message, but I could have just as easily done one of a number of things:
turned off my Lap Top and gone to bed
gone to a different site
turned the Lap Top off and read a book
turned the Lap Top off and started playing a Video Game
etc...etc... (and in any of those instances of turning the lap top off, I could just leave it on instead)
Rarely do you ever have only one choice, though our desires may make it seem as if it was limited to one choice, for example:
You have a gun pressed to your head and the gunner is going to shoot you if you don't tell him everything you know about... ah, hell, KMC (let's make this utterly rediculous) and you don't want to die. Oh, and you are bound so there is no hope of escape. Now to fullfil you desire to continue living your only choice is to tell the gunner everything you know about KMC, but in reality you have atleast 2 choices (1) let the guy kill you or (2) tell him everything you know... and I just thought of choice (3) tell him alittle and try to decieve him into believing that is all you know.
Same with your example of the starving man (1) he could steal some food (2) he could scavenge left-overs from garbage (3) he could try to kill an animal and eat it (4) he could starve to death. Granted #4 is not much of a choice, but it is a choice. (5) he could kill a person and eat them. (Grotesque and usually unthinkable choice, but still existant.)
Free Will exists, because in almost every situation there is more than one choice, what usually limits choice for us is our own desires and beliefs, but just because something is against our desires or beliefs doesn't make it any less of a choice, because we still have the ability to choose that path.
Originally posted by Mandrag Ganon
...Free Will exists, because in almost every situation there is more than one choice, what usually limits choice for us is our own desires and beliefs, but just because something is against our desires or beliefs doesn't make it any less of a choice, because we still have the ability to choose that path.
The number of choices to a situation does not matter. The fact that your choices are limited by external forces shows that you do not have free will. You have limited will. There is always something you cannot do, be it flying to the moon under your own power, or live forever.
If you had free will, you could do anything at any time.
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
The number of choices to a situation does not matter. The fact that your choices are limited by external forces shows that you do not have free will. You have limited will. There is always something you cannot do, be it flying to the moon under your own power, or live forever.If you had free will, you could do anything at any time.
I'd like to see if you can find a single other person that holds that definition of "free will".
wouldn't it imply that someone who is confined to a wheel chair has less free will than someone who doesn't?
In this case, a building putting in handicapped access ramps would be seen as violating free will in the same way answering prayers would be...
I'm with sym on this, I think you guys have misinterpreted what is traditionally meant by "free will", ie, the ability to control your actions and the outcome of your behaviour.
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
I'd like to see if you can find a single other person that holds that definition of "free will".
So, popularity is of important to you?
Originally posted by inimalist
wouldn't it imply that someone who is confined to a wheel chair has less free will than someone who doesn't?In this case, a building putting in handicapped access ramps would be seen as violating free will in the same way answering prayers would be...
I'm with sym on this, I think you guys have misinterpreted what is traditionally meant by "free will", ie, the ability to control your actions and the outcome of your behaviour.
I am taking the words free will literally. I am hoping to show how interpretation is a key factor in trying to understand what is written in the bible.
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
So, popularity is of important to you?
In conversation meaning must be agreed upon and mutually understood if it is not then communication is inherently impossible. You have picked a new (and stupid) meaning for free will and apparently expect other people to accept it. This creates completely needless confusion that you use to obfuscate your own limitations.
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
In conversation meaning must be agreed upon and mutually understood if it is not then communication is inherently impossible. You have picked a new (and stupid) meaning for free will and apparently expect other people to accept it. This creates completely needless confusion that you use to obfuscate your own limitations.
And so it goes with interpreting the bible. That is why there are so many denominations in Christianity.
There are many things in the bible that are stupid, and most of them are that way because of people picking meanings.
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
And so it goes with interpreting the bible. That is why there are so many denominations in Christianity.There are many things in the bible that are stupid, and most of them are that way because of people picking meanings.
Which is exactly why you have to explain personal (crazy) definitions of words to other people before beginning a debate.
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Which is exactly why you have to explain personal (crazy) definitions of words to other people before beginning a debate.
But I wasn't having a debate with you.
Do you consider a literal interpretation of the bible to be crazy?
Do you think it is uncommon for people to a literal interpretation of the bible?
Do you think the thread starter was using a literal interpretation of the bible?
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
The only person listening while you pray is yourself. Fortunately, it turns out that the only person who can do anything about your prays is also yourself. Therefore, if there is something you are praying for, then get off your butt and do something about it.
Originally posted by maham
sometimes you do everything you can,but most of the things are not in your hands.what to do thenboat
Take responsibility for your life. It can be difficult to distinguish between what is your responsibility and what is not your responsibility, but generally taking responsibility for your life and were you are right now is a good start.