Originally posted by Shakyamunison
So, popularity is of important to you?I am taking the words free will literally. I am hoping to show how interpretation is a key factor in trying to understand what is written in the bible.
True, but the same goes for nearly everything else, people interperate everything to fit into their view of the world... It's kind of unfortunate actually...
Originally posted by Mandrag Ganon
True, but the same goes for nearly everything else, people interperate everything to fit into their view of the world... It's kind of unfortunate actually...
Then we have to admit that at some point we cannot know. That leads to what works and what does not work. That means if prayer works for you, then you should pray. If it doesn't, then do something else. That way prayer does not interfere with free will because their relationship becomes meaningless.
lord xyzHow can it be free will if God answers your prayers.
And if he doesn't, which he doesn't, why bother praying?
It's rather slippery for you to assume that God does not answer prayer! As ridiculous as it may seem, you have zero proof. Second, God answers prayer according to His will, not ours. Scripture plainly states that notion. God is not a genie in a bottle. Such makes perfect sense if God's knowledge surpasses human intellect. And lastly, Christians pray for wisdom/understanding entailing life experience(s), not monetary reward and/or free handouts! With all in mind, freewill is not compromised. My question to you: have you every studied Holy Scripture in open fashion, or do you merely nit-pick to serve your own self-imposed views (based on emotion)? It's just an honest question.
Originally posted by ushomefree
It's rather slippery for you to assume that God does not answer prayer! As ridiculous as it may seem, you have zero proof. Second, God answers prayer according to His will, not ours. Scripture plainly states that notion. God is not a genie in a bottle. Such makes perfect sense if God's knowledge surpasses human intellect. And lastly, Christians pray for wisdom/understanding entailing life experience(s), not monetary reward and/or free handouts! With all in mind, freewill is not compromised. My question to you: have you every studied Holy Scripture in open fashion, or do you merely nit-pick to serve your own self-imposed views (based on emotion)? It's just an honest question.
Sure, lord xyz may not have any proof that a god does not answer a prayer, but neither do you have any proof to the contrary. There is no way to prove that a god answers a prayer, because prayer is all in the mind of the person praying.
Re: Doesn't prayer intefere with "free will"?
Originally posted by lord xyz
How can it be free will if God answers your prayers.And if he doesn't, which he doesn't, why bother praying?
JIA, what the hell?
I watch the JLA, not JIA..sorry. Anyway, praying(much like meditation) is a way of calming and relaxing one's nerves. Unfortunately, sometimes praying doesn't necessarily give us the response we want..and that's when we have to move forward and do what we know is right. Now the problem is, what is right? It depends on the given situation. Do you know what love is? Once you know the answer to the question, then you'll know why God doesn't respond to your prayers.
Matthew
Originally posted by lord xyz
My point is, if God helps you, where is the free will?Free will, my understanding, is complete absence of God. God does not interfere or control your life. So when you pray for a promotion, and get one, is that earning a promotion by yourself? Or is it God playing favourites? How can it be free will if you're being helped by a supernatural being?
Phenominal case of contradictory. If you are asking for God's help then you are asking him on your own free will; are you not? Bassically why on Earth would you ask him something if you believed it was againt your will?
I have yet to have the concept of Christian free will logically explained to me, despite having been Christian most of my life. Apparently it's non-deterministic, which doesn't make any sense at all to me. So I'd join in the discussion, but I'm not sure I can grasp the underlying concept first. Because imo it's not prayer that interferes with free will, it's....well...the universe.
shrug
Christian free will is similar to Kantian thought. To explain, Kant says this in Critique of Pure Reason:
"A person's will is thought of, in terms of its appearance in visible actions, as necessarily subjects to the law of Nature. i.e the principle of causality. i.e determinism and this as not being free."
"The very same wil is thought of as belonging to a thing in itself (namely that person's soul considered as a thing in itself.) as not subject to the law of Nature and thus as being free."
Christians believe that the soul is free (at least in my experience) and that it is what gives us free will.
It's fairly shaky ground though since it depends on human beings having a non materialistic soul (not say an Arisotlean soul), which can't be proven.
Thanks. That's as coherent an explanation as I've seen.
Originally posted by Autokrat
It's fairly shaky ground though since it depends on human beings having a non materialistic soul (not say an Arisotlean soul), which can't be proven.
True. And it also defies causality. Even if a soul is non-materialistic, it's impossible (for me at least) to conceive of something that acts outside of some kind of causal system. To do so would require continuous reality manipulation. Which, granted, an omnipotent deity should be capable of, but to say that the whole thing seems far-fetched and lacking evidence is a vast, vast understatement.
I really just think that many Christians, and I don't mean the clergy and apologists but laypeople, don't give it a lot of thought. They want to believe in some sort of amorphic "freedom" without thinking critically enough about exactly how they're able to thwart the determinism that guides the rest of the known universe.
Of course, calling it free will also implies that the opposite of free will is some form of subjugation, which is also misleading. Philosophy abounds with freedom in deterministic systems, albeit a different kind of freedom than is explicated by Christians. But it creates a convenient gag reflex in the human psyche to equate not having free will with being a slave or somesuch, so I can see why the idea of "free" is clung to.
Originally posted by Digi
Thanks. That's as coherent an explanation as I've seen.True. And it also defies causality. Even if a soul is non-materialistic, it's impossible (for me at least) to conceive of something that acts outside of some kind of causal system. To do so would require continuous reality manipulation. Which, granted, an omnipotent deity should be capable of, but to say that the whole thing seems far-fetched and lacking evidence is a vast, vast understatement.
I really just think that many Christians, and I don't mean the clergy and apologists but laypeople, don't give it a lot of thought. They want to believe in some sort of amorphic "freedom" without thinking critically enough about exactly how they're able to thwart the determinism that guides the rest of the known universe.
Of course, calling it free will also implies that the opposite of free will is some form of subjugation, which is also misleading. Philosophy abounds with freedom in deterministic systems, albeit a different kind of freedom than is explicated by Christians. But it creates a convenient gag reflex in the human psyche to equate not having free will with being a slave or somesuch, so I can see why the idea of "free" is clung to.
To be fair to Kant, he does have a very detailed explanation as to how the freedom of the soul works, but I am not qualified to try and explain it (I hardly understand it myself). Kant does admit that his argument presupposes the existence of god to which he provides his own argument for the existence of god.
Originally posted by Autokrat
To be fair to Kant, he does have a very detailed explanation as to how the freedom of the soul works, but I am not qualified to try and explain it (I hardly understand it myself). Kant does admit that his argument presupposes the existence of god to which he provides his own argument for the existence of god.
Right, it has to devolve into what any religious argument does: faith. And in most cases, completely blind faith based on no evidence whatsoever. If the presupposition is true, I'll grant everything else about the theory. But that's a big if, as big as an infinite number of others that are equally as unlikely.
So. Anyway. I can see how prayer doesn't interfere with free will. A few people in this thread have defended it credibly. I just don't see how free will doesn't interfere with existence.
Originally posted by overlord
I got violent without a reason because I was obsessed with myselfin other words possessed, no more plan
Just because you do something with no reason does not mean you are possessed. All it means it you do things without know why. This is most likely because you are too high, too often.