Originally posted by KingD19Actually that's not true. Years of being Spider-man made Parker a great athlet, so now even without his powers he's a peak human with great speed and agility. And spider powers on top of that make him as good of an acrobat as Kurt.
No, he relies on his powers, take those away, and he's got nothing. Nightcrawler is still a highly skilled acrobat without his powers, since he's been one his entire life.
Originally posted by StiltmanFTWDoesnt matter, the electric bolt is real enough, so are the fists and the robot attacking him from the air. And you'd be surprised how many peak humans there are in MU, almost every D-list villain is a peak human. Heck Eddie Brock without the symbiote is a peak human.
Those aren't the real deal and you think that feat makes him peak human in MU? Not even close
Originally posted by KingD19Um... ok? Never said that Parker without super powers = NC in acrobatics, just that you saying that he's "nothing" if you take his powers away is incorret. Also, you cant post NC acrobatic feats that Spider-man with powers couldn't match unless it involves Kurt using his tale..
I could put up scans of Nightcrawler putting Spidey to shame in acrobatic/agility feats. And regular Peter would die attempting most, if not all of those feats.
Originally posted by KingD19
(...) And regular Peter would die attempting most, if not all of those feats.
Marvel Universe would be a better place without him.
Originally posted by SamZED
Doesnt matter, the electric bolt is real enough, so are the fists and the robot attacking him from the air. And you'd be surprised how many peak humans there are in MU, almost every D-list villain is a peak human. Heck Eddie Brock without the symbiote is a peak human.
So he's faster than lightning...? Of course not, he got lucky, he aim-dodged it.
You're suggesting it takes a peak human to dodge a robot?
Classic Iron Fist w/o chi wasn't listed as a peak human. Just athlete. Peak human is another level and depowered Spidey or even Brock ain't close.
Originally posted by StiltmanFTWYes they are, peak human does NOT neccesarilly = Daredevil or Batman, peak human is a human at the peak of his physical form and Brock's got strength feats that are impressive even comparing to some of Batman's feats. And he got lucky 4 times there. And yes it definitely takes a peak human speed to dodge 4 robots that perfectly immitate the 4 supervillains powerwise and speedwise and it takes a peak human speed to dodge an electric bolt.
So he's faster than lightning...? Of course not, he got lucky, he aim-dodged it.You're suggesting it takes a peak human to dodge a robot?
Classic Iron Fist w/o chi wasn't listed as a peak human. Just athlete. Peak human is another level and depowered Spidey or even Brock ain't close.
Originally posted by SamZED
Yes they are, peak human does NOT neccesarilly = Daredevil or Batman, peak human is a human at the peak of his physical form and Brock's got strength feats that are impressive even comparing to some of Batman's feats. And he got lucky 4 times there. And yes it definitely takes a peak human speed to dodge 4 robots that perfectly immitate the 4 supervillains powerwise and speedwise and it takes a peak human speed to dodge an electric bolt.
Give me some examples of those Brock's feats.
Robots imitating losers, really impressive. So basically you're saying that anyone who avoids a bullet/robot/laser/etc. in MU is at least peak human...?
No, it doesn't. He aim-dodged it, that's a nice showing of skill. Athlete speed was all he needed there.
He'd need loads of feats like that one to classify him as a legitimate peak human in reflexes department. One showing against robots proves very little. I'd say he's at athlete lv w/o powers.
Originally posted by StiltmanFTWYou cant seriously go by the "those villains are lame so the feats do not count" kind of logic. Robots or not, there were four of them with the powers and SPEED of Sandman, Elektro, Vulture and Scorpion and Parker was able to dodge all of them for a while. Anyone who can dodge bullets has a peak human speed in my book, yes. And Spider-man doesn't have lots of simillar feats because he rarely runs around without super powers. But what he did in the scan clearly proves the whole "he's nothing without his powers" thing wrong, which was my intention in the first place. And as for Brock, not saying he's got strength feats that match Batman's but he clearly displays peak human strength, the kind you'd expect to see from Batman and Daredevil.
Give me some examples of those Brock's feats.Robots imitating losers, really impressive. So basically you're saying that anyone who avoids a bullet/robot/laser/etc. in MU is at least peak human...?
No, it doesn't. He aim-dodged it, that's a nice showing of skill. Athlete speed was all he needed there.
He'd need loads of feats like that one to classify him as a legitimate peak human in reflexes department. One showing against robots proves very little. I'd say he's at athlete lv w/o powers.
Breaks some guy's hand simply by grabbing it.
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=8699683
breaks metal bonds
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=8699667
Weight lifting
http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/5425/amazingspiderman33203.jpg
Beats the crap outta symbiote with his bare hands, the others're like wtf and it took several symbiotes to restrain him.
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=8699713
You really believe that just an athlete could do that?
PS also man, i have great respect for you as a debator and you probably know that already but what's up with you and the whole Spider-man hatred? I mean, it's always my favorite characters who get hated around this forum. First Wolverine, now Spider-man, I guess Deadpool's next..🙁
Originally posted by SamZED
So you're gonna go by the "those villains are lame so the feats do not count" kind of logic? Robots or not, there were four of them with the powers and SPEED of Sandman, Elektro, Vulture and Scorpion and Parker was able to dodge all of them for a while. Anyone who can dodge bullets has a peak human speed in my book, yes. And Spider-man doesn't have lots of simillar feats because he rarely runs around without super powers. But what he did in the scan clearly proves the whole "he's nothing without his powers" thing wrong, which was my intention in the first place. And as for Brock, not saying he's got strength feats that match Batman's but he clearly displays peak human strength, the kind you'd expect to see from Batman and Daredevil.Breaks some guy's hand simply by grabbing it.
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=8699683breaks metal bonds
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=8699667Weight lifting
http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/5425/amazingspiderman33203.jpgBeats the crap outta symbiote with his bare hands, the others're like wtf and it took several symbiotes to restrain him.
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=8699713
Are you saying that just an athlete could do all that?
Ever heard of aim-dodging? You don't need peak human speed for that.
Those are awesome feats. But yeah, Marvel Universe athlete could do things like those...
Sharon Carter broke metal bonds, too. And she's just a woman.
We're talking about comic book characters. Confirmed peak humans have superhuman feats and so do confirmed athletes. The difference between them is that peak humans have more and better showings.
Originally posted by SamZED
PS also man, i have great respect for you as a debator and you probably know that already but what's up with you and the whole Spider-man hatred? I mean, it's always my favorite characters who get hated around this forum. First Wolverine, now Spider-man, I guess Deadpool's next..🙁
Just refreshed the page, been afk after I pressed "reply w/ quote" button.
Thank you very much, I do respect you too.
Well, to be honest, Spidey used to be one of my favorite superheros. But after OMD, dozens of ferocious debates in Wolverine vs. Spider-Man threads on other sites, finding out about Skip Westcott... I can't stand him anymore. Recent NA issues don't help either.
Spiderman needs his powers to do his high end feats of course, but they are better than Kurt's. Without them Kurt wins this. With powers, Kurt is able to be ko'ed in one hit. Not much to it. Real world athletes as well as peak humans can do superhuman feats. Hence why I say they are in the same relative realm as a human Olympic athlete at their specified area. The difference is Peak humans have the peak of all abilities often and not just one or two like a human would.
Kurt has more acrobat experience, but he would be slightly under with powers on just because of Parker's level. Kurt's powers do allow him some advantages as well, along with his physiology.
Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Spiderman needs his powers to do his high end feats of course, but they are better than Kurt's. Without them Kurt wins this. With powers, Kurt is able to be ko'ed in one hit. Not much to it. Real world athletes as well as peak humans can do superhuman feats. Hence why I say they are in the same relative realm as a human Olympic athlete at their specified area. The difference is Peak humans have the peak of all abilities often and not just one or two like a human would.Kurt has more acrobat experience, but he would be slightly under with powers on just because of Parker's level. Kurt's powers do allow him some advantages as well, along with his physiology.
They are not superhuman, these feats, if people without enhancements can do them. I'd argue about NC getting one-shotted. Good post though.
Originally posted by StiltmanFTWWell, more depends on the number of appearance, Brock compared to Batman has got few. Better I guess is true. Those feats do not match Batman's best feats but imo they surpass any ordinary comic athlete's feats.
Ever heard of aim-dodging? You don't need peak human speed for that.Those are awesome feats. But yeah, Marvel Universe athlete could do things like those...
Sharon Carter broke metal bonds, too. And she's just a woman.
We're talking about comic book characters. Confirmed peak humans have superhuman feats and so do confirmed athletes. The difference between them is that peak humans have more and better showings.
Originally posted by StiltmanFTWThanks. And I see what you mean. OMD was a disaster. And I know vs forums would do that. But I dont see any reasons to be upset with the Skip thing, i mean it sure sucks but it's not like he got butt-raped or something, and its not like he liked that "experience". Spider-man was always written as a character almost anyone can relate to. Probems at school, with girls etc and this story was probably written for those who experienced something like that to make them feel better.
Just refreshed the page, been afk after I pressed "reply w/ quote" button.Thank you very much, I do respect you too.
Well, to be honest, Spidey used to be one of my favorite superheros. But after OMD, dozens of ferocious debates in Wolverine vs. Spider-Man threads on other sites, finding out about Skip Westcott... I can't stand him anymore. Recent NA issues don't help either.
Originally posted by StiltmanFTWWhat do you mean? Their history? Nightcrawler is enhanced, not as enhanced as Spiderman. Or do you mean for peak feats?
They are not superhuman, these feats, if people without enhancements can do them. I'd argue about NC getting one-shotted. Good post though.
I made that point ages ago about that, and I agree with you totally, they of course can do superhuman feats, just not as casually. But real world athletes can too.
Nightcrawler might not get hit every time for a one hit KO, but it is possible, and each hit would severely damage him depending on how hard he hits.
Originally posted by SamZED
Well, [B]more depends on the number of appearance, Brock compared to Batman has got few. Better I guess is true. Those feats do not match Batman's best feats but imo they surpass any ordinary comic athlete's feats.
And ive heard of aim-dodging but to be honest barely ever saw it in comics. The characters that were said to be able to dodge the aim of guns almost ALWAYS display actual bullet dodging feats later. Im positive Punisher's got lots of dodging feats. It was recently said that Elektra cant dodge bullets but actually dodges the aim, on the other hand in her other appearances she's got bullet-DEFLECTING feats with her sai as well as her bare fist, see what I mean? And maybe Parker can't qualify as peak human due to lack of showings but he's definitely not "nothing" without his super powers. He's very good even without them, and with them he easilly matches NC in terms of acrobatics.[/b]
Good point about the number of appearances.
Punisher effortlessly breaks thugs' bones all the time, but that does not make him peak human in strength in Marvel Universe.
I gotta admit, that military press feat is pretty insane.
Non-enhanced humans hurting super-beings happens every week in comics. Not saying that's not a decent feat, what I mean is that characters with less than peak human strength did that.
Originally posted by SamZED
Thanks. And I see what you mean. OMD was a disaster. And I know vs forums would do that. But I dont see any reasons to be upset with the Skip thing, i mean it sure sucks but it's not like he got butt-raped or something, and its not like he liked that "experience". Spider-man was always written as a character almost anyone can relate to. Probems at school, with girls etc and this story was probably written for those who experienced something like that to make them feel better.
Agreed... but making him a victim in every possible way it's a little too much.
Originally posted by Tha C-Master
What do you mean? Their history? Nightcrawler is enhanced, not as enhanced as Spiderman. Or do you mean for peak feats?I made that point ages ago about that, and I agree with you totally, they of course can do superhuman feats, just not as casually. But real world athletes can too.
Nightcrawler might not get hit every time for a one hit KO, but it is possible, and each hit would severely damage him depending on how hard he hits.
I was referring to that statement of yours about real world athletes performing superhuman feats.
It is possible if Spidey goes all out. CIS/CIP would prevent him from doing that. Also Kurt has pretty good durability.
