Originally posted by truejedi
yes, we have discussed this. However, there is no way that a weightless blade can be spun around in the manner than anakin does in the Geonosis arena while waiting for the droids to open fire after Windu turned down the offer from Dooku.Therefore, they must have a weight compensator.
There is a gyroscopic effect at work though.
Originally posted by truejedi
Galen does not have a single victory over another with a lightsaber. Every fight he won ended with an overwhelming force attack. Since there is no evidence that Marek is capable of winning a fight without the force, so Kenobi wins the saber battle.
Beg your pardon but no.
In the novel Galen was beating Rahm Kota in a sabre duel. He was beating Vader with his sword skills too. He scored three hits on Vader, including stabbing him in the leg and slicing his throat while all Vader managed to do was land two flesh wounds that Galen didn't even feel.
He used the Force to finish them off but in each case he was already winning.
Originally posted by chilled monkey
Beg your pardon but no.In the novel Galen was beating Rahm Kota in a sabre duel. He was beating Vader with his sword skills too. He scored three hits on Vader, including stabbing him in the leg and slicing his throat while all Vader managed to do was land two flesh wounds that Galen didn't even feel.
He used the Force to finish them off but in each case he was already winning.
definitly was the force that won both of those fights. It might be your opinion that Marek was going to win them without the force, but that is certainly just playing a game of "what ifs"
Originally posted by truejedi
definitly was the force that won both of those fights. It might be your opinion that Marek was going to win them without the force, but that is certainly just playing a game of "what ifs"
No it is not. It is looking at the facts of each fight.
Specifically that Galen scored several serious hits on Vader while Vader could only score minor wounds on him.
Against Kota it is noted that he (Kota) is taking hits while Galen isn't.
In each case he had the upper hand due to his sabre skills before using Force attacks to finish them off. That is not my opinion, that is what actually happens.
Originally posted by chilled monkeyInteresting. Quotes, if you please.
No it is not. It is looking at the facts of each fight.Specifically that Galen scored several serious hits on Vader while Vader could only score minor wounds on him.
Against Kota it is noted that he (Kota) is taking hits while Galen isn't.
In each case he had the upper hand due to his sabre skills before using Force attacks to finish them off. That is not my opinion, that is what actually happens.
see, the words upper hand turn it into an opinion.
The fact remains, that marek is yet to finish a fight with sabers. The force was used in each instance. My opinion: That Marek has never WON a fight with a saber is actually a fact. Your take: That he had the upper hand, and WAS GOING TO WIN, is opinion.
In this instance, i think the text supports your OPINION. But don't confuse it with the facts, which is that Marek has never actually won without the force.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Interesting. Quotes, if you please.
I don't have the novel with me at the moment, but if you can hang on for a day or so I'll post the quotes then.
Originally posted by truejedi
see, the words upper hand turn it into an opinion.The fact remains, that marek is yet to finish a fight with sabers. The force was used in each instance. My opinion: That Marek has never WON a fight with a saber is actually a fact. Your take: That he had the upper hand, and WAS GOING TO WIN, is opinion.
In this instance, i think the text supports your OPINION. But don't confuse it with the facts, which is that Marek has never actually won without the force.
The "Marek has never WON a fight with a saber" bit is true, I'll admit that.
However you claimed:
Originally posted by truejedi
there is no evidence that Marek is capable of winning a fight without the force
Which is not the case. The fact that he had the upper hand against Kota, Vader etc in lightsabre combat is evidence that he does not NEED Force attacks and can win without them.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Interesting. Quotes, if you please.
Here we go:
Galen vs Kota-
"He (Kota) attempted his charge attack two more times, obviously hoping to force a mistake or wear out his opponent, but it was he who started to show the effects of the duel, he who took hits. Soon his cloak was a smoking rag and one of his shoulder pads was glowing red-hot
The apprentice pressed harder, feeling victory and the attainment of his full power approaching."
Galen vs. Vader-
"Darth Vader fought brilliantly, never employing anything less than a killing stroke. His intention was lethal. All he needed was one slip, one tiny gap in his opponent's defenses.
The apprentice vowed not to give him one. He whirled and danced around his Master's defenses, testing them to their limits"
"The lightsabers flashed again - and it was the apprentice who found the chink in the armour that both of them had been waiting for. Vader's lightsaber moved too slowly to block a blow to his chest, allowing the apprentice's blade to slash deeply across his armoured throat. Vader staggered backwards, gloved hand upraised to the smoking wound."
"Anger flared. He lunged forward. His former Master barely blocked the blow. A second scored a deep wound across his black-clad shoulder. A third stabbed deep into his thigh.
Darth Vader reeled backward, servos whining in his injured limbs and lightsaber shaking."
As you can see Galen was winning due to his sabre skills, even if he used Force attacks to finish his foes off.
i don't think you get what i'm saying though CM, i was definitly in agreement that the text seems to back up the OPINION that Marek was winning those 2 duels (it also seems to support that he was losing against Shaak Ti). My point was that he has never actually won without going to the force, so we can't say for certain he was going to win those duels without further evidence. If it had said something like "he used the force to finish them off" we would have the evidence.
As it was, we merely see that he is an excellent combatant, but he can't be credited with any victories using saber only. If you think about it, Maul had the upper hand in his fight over Kenobi until the very last second, so we can't say someone seeming to have the advantage gives them the win.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
That's true. I've never read the novel, but apparently Marek still utilized his Force-powers to get to that point in the above quoted lines. If the fight had been sabers, and sabers only right from the get-go----different story.
Not quite.
The Kota duel begins with Galen using Force attacks (lightning and telekinesis) but Kota deflects them with the Force. Kota then attacks with his lightsabre and it's straightforward blade-to-blade combat with neither of them utilising Force powers. It is here that the quoted lines occur. In other words Galen didn't need Force attacks to get to that point and it would have been the same story if they had started with lightsabres only.
In the Vader duel, Vader is the first to use Force attacks. Galen first uses the Force defensively to repel the objects Vader throws at him. They cross blades and are clearly well-matched, both narrowly blocking each other's strikes.
It then has both of them using telekinesis to hurl objects at each other with nothing to indicate that either had an advantage. It then goes back to blade-to-blade, no use of Force attacks. Here is where the first set of quoted lines from the Vader duel occur.
Vader then gets the upper hand when Galen goads him ("Was that how your father treated you?"😉 and Vader basically goes berzerk ("I have NO father!"😉
Galen hits him with lightening to break off his onslaught. Vader responds with a Force Choke which Galen breaks with a Force Push. They then go back to crossing blades (again no Force attacks) and Galen lands the strike to Vader's throat.
Basically Vader utilised Force attacks just as much as Galen did. He only really used the Force to gain the upper hand once (the lightening attack). Even before that he was matching Vader blow for blow with lightsabres only.
So if it had been lightsabres only from the get go it probably wouldn't have been much different.