Dr. Doom vs Wonder Woman

Originally posted by Lord Feron
Recently with the Marquis of Death, it is revelead that Doom is now atleast a mid level reality manipulator that can easily traverse dimensions, kill watchers, (did I say he could warp reality?)... doom WTF stomps WW as if she was ****ing fly.

But if you want to use NOT THE CURRENT DOOM which is against forum rules but apparently nobody cares. SO yeah if were gonna break forum rules..WW can beat Doom in a random encounter.

So he's like a hundred times more powerful than classic Doom?

Like I said, I didn't know this and you're the first person to bring it up at all.

So I'll just say "my arguments hold true for 90% of Dr. Doom's versions out there, but not the new uber reality warper one."

Nah, any Doom wins.

Originally posted by Mindset
Nah, any Doom wins.

QFT.

Originally posted by Q99 "my arguments ignorance holds true for 90% of Dr. Doom versions out there"

fixed.

Repeating that isn't the same as giving a reason, you know.

^ You clearly think Dr. Doom is just a guy in a robot suit or an Ironman-clone. The amount of education you require to undo your distorted preconceptions isn't really worth the effort. And in all fairness, the effort should be on your part, not ours. Check my sig, go look at the respect thread.

Originally posted by Q99
Tony's taken down Doom's suit with his pre-Extremis suits. So has Thing.

Originally posted by Q99
My problem is people aren't actually saying why Doom's winning, they're just saying he does.

Seriously? Because I don't see Dr. Doom going toe-to-toe with Superman or Captain Marvel any time soon, which Diana's done on a good half-dozen + occasions.

Did I miss a powerup where he *massively* improved his gear or something?

Newsflash: Doom's fended off foes on Superman and Captain Marvel's level before.

In all honesty, you actually did.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ You clearly think Dr. Doom is just a guy in a robot suit or an Ironman-clone. The amount of education you require to undo your distorted preconceptions isn't really worth the effort.

No, I think Doom is a super-genius with a lot of capabilities and an armor that's not far from Iron Man's in physical capabilities and solid magic on top. Dr. Doom was a reoccurring foe back in the old Iron Man comic too, Tony has fought him on several occasions and it's not a spite.

A search for IM vs Doom threads also reveals pretty split decisions as well.

In my view, Doom *starts out* at Iron Man level, or somewhat above really thanks to magic, and raises the more prep time he has.

Let's forget Iron Man for a second too. The members of the Fantastic Four have KOed Victor a few times, Thing included, especially in the classic stuff. WW's a lot stronger than any of the Four. I'm under the impression that's his armor's roughly that level of toughness, and no-one's bringing up counter examples.

Dr. Doom as far as I'm aware is a massive threat but physically I don't think he's classically on a level with Wonder Woman and while I don't require a ton of examples at least one or two incidents of him fighting someone at or near her level physically would be nice.

To quote your own respect thread, "Most times, his armor's strength is on display when he trades blows with the Thing."

And in all fairness, the effort should be on your part, not ours.

The ones making the claims need to back them up. I've explained why I have my view, but neither you nor others are explaining what's wrong with it.

Repeating "Doom will win" is simply not an argument.

Crimson Bands of Cytorrak. Magic BFR into the past. Any number of plot device gadgets that he can carry with him.

Yea, plot device gadgets. *Prep*. No-one's arguing against him winning with that sort of thing. I'm talking throw-down, standard gear.

A lasso and bracers that block magic, and senses that detect it combined with super speed to interrupt or avoid spells he's casting. One of her big foes is Circe, it's not like Wonder Woman doesn't take on Doom level magic foes on a regular basis either, it's one of the most common things she faces.

Newsflash: Doom's fended off foes on Superman and Captain Marvel's level before.

He's never beaten them in a brawl in his classic armor, though. That's what plot device gadgets are for. If you have a counter example, please bring it up, because I am honestly willing to listen.

In all honesty, you actually did.

Yes, the reality warper thing is new to me.

Originally posted by Q99
No, I think Doom is a super-genius with a lot of capabilities and an armor that's not far from Iron Man's in physical capabilities and solid magic on top. Dr. Doom was a reoccurring foe back in the old Iron Man comic too, Tony has fought him on several occasions and it's not a spite.

A search for IM vs Doom threads also reveals pretty split decisions as well.

In my view, Doom *starts out* at Iron Man level, or somewhat above really thanks to magic, and raises the more prep time he has.

Originally posted by Q99
Let's forget Iron Man for a second too. The members of the Fantastic Four have KOed Victor a few times, Thing included, especially in the classic stuff. WW's a lot stronger than any of the Four. I'm under the impression that's his armor's roughly that level of toughness, and no-one's bringing up counter examples.

Dr. Doom as far as I'm aware is a massive threat but physically I don't think he's classically on a level with Wonder Woman and while I don't require a ton of examples at least one or two incidents of him fighting someone at or near her level physically would be nice.

That's what the respect thread is for. I spoon-feed infants, not grown people who can click on links and read for themselves.

Originally posted by Q99
To quote your own respect thread, "Most times, his armor's strength is on display when he trades blows with the Thing."

The ones making the claims need to back them up. I've explained why I have my view, but neither you nor others are explaining what's wrong with it.

Repeating "Doom will win" is simply not an argument.

Originally posted by Q99
Yea, plot device gadgets. *Prep*. No-one's arguing against him winning with that sort of thing. I'm talking throw-down, standard gear.

A lasso and bracers that block magic, and senses that detect it combined with super speed to interrupt or avoid spells he's casting. One of her big foes is Circe, it's not like Wonder Woman doesn't take on Doom level magic foes on a regular basis either, it's one of the most common things she faces.

Bracers aren't going to block the Crimson Bands of Cytorrak from appearing around her and entrapping her. Bracers aren't going to undo her being thrown into 1,000,000 B.C.

Originally posted by Q99
He's never beaten them in a brawl in his classic armor, though. That's what plot device gadgets are for. If you have a counter example, please bring it up, because I am honestly willing to listen.

Yes, the reality warper thing is new to me.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Yes, because we use classic Doctor Doom in this thread who didn't even have a gas filter on in his earliest appearances. Yes, that makes sense.

I'm not talking that far back.

Yea... as a precursor to him shattering a friggin diamond in the palm of his hand. It's called LOOK AT THE NEXT LINK.

Shattering a diamond's pretty trivial next to her strength, she can lift millions of tons.

Not really. His devices are carried on his person and most of them are built into his armor. Try reading.

They're carried on his person, but he swaps them out as needed and doesn't carry them all around with him. Looking at the respect thread, I don't think most of the ones built into his armor and shown being used on multiple occasions will do.

Which ones does he carry as standard gear, rather than a special purpose device, that'll grant a win in your opinion?

Bracers aren't going to block the Crimson Bands of Cytorrak from appearing around her and entrapping her. Bracers aren't going to undo her being thrown into 1,000,000 B.C.

No, but superspeed out of the way will. Wrapping someone with the lasso prevents spellcasting.

Who ini god's name is saying Doom will win in a brawl?

You were, apparently by accident, because I'm definitely arguing she beats him physically.

So the basis of our disagreement would seem to be, when you're talking "no prep," you're still including Doom with a variety of his special devices and such, and I'm not, would it be fair to say?

Btw, thanks for talking. Even if it's a bit hostile in tone, it's better than not getting an explanation.

Originally posted by Q99
I'm not talking that far back.

Shattering a diamond's pretty trivial next to her strength, she can lift millions of tons.

Remember why you brought up strength. You act like Doom could never physically resist Wonderwoman or people on her level (ignoring even for the moment that you somehow ignore his forcefields, his attacks and etc.). You brought up people like Thing. Doom laughs off Thing punches. Thing can't crush diamonds in his hands. Neither can Colossus. You've vastly underestimated Doom's strength.

Originally posted by Q99
They're carried on his person, but he swaps them out as needed and doesn't carry them all around with him. Looking at the respect thread, I don't think most of the ones built into his armor and shown being used on multiple occasions will do.

Which ones does he carry as standard gear, rather than a special purpose device, that'll grant a win in your opinion?

I'm correcting your misinformation. I'm not going to argue with you over what you would approve of as helping Doom win. You clearly are attempting to argue past me since I never even suggested that he has a device that alone would grant him a win.

Originally posted by Q99
No, but superspeed out of the way will. Wrapping someone with the lasso prevents spellcasting.

You were, apparently by accident, because I'm definitely arguing she beats him physically.

So the basis of our disagreement would seem to be, when you're talking "no prep," you're still including Doom with a variety of his special devices and such, and I'm not, would it be fair to say?

Btw, thanks for talking. Even if it's a bit hostile in tone, it's better than not getting an explanation.

By ignoring all of Doom's attacks, defenses and ability to hold his own physically.

The basis of the disagreement is I don't think you know what you're talking about.

Yea, it does sound hostile. But suggesting that Ironman and Thing take down Doom or that Doom has never had to physically encounter Superman-level foes, etc. doesn't leave me much room to do anything but quickly and unsubtley point out how much I disagree with you when you make such statements. As it happens, the rest of your general opinions on how the fight would go pretty much completely revolve around those falsities. So I treat them in the same manner.

Remember why you brought up strength. You act like Doom could never physically resist Wonderwoman or people on her level (ignoring even for the moment that you somehow ignore his forcefields, his attacks and etc.). You brought up people like Thing. Doom laughs off Thing punches. Thing can't crush diamonds in his hands. Neither can Colossus. You've vastly underestimated Doom's strength.

I didn't have the impression he 'laughed them off', but I'll take your word for it.

Still, are you saying it's anywhere near Diana's?

What you think would hurt Wonderwoman is irrelevant. You asserted he required prep in order to use his devices. Clearly you were misinformed.

I think he'd need prep to grab a device that could specifically take down Diana. He has devices built in to his armor aplenty and I don't think he needs anything to use them, I just don't think those in his standard setup is up for this kind of task, and 'no prep' means standard setup to me.

You clearly are attempting to argue past me since I never even suggested that he has a device that alone would grant him a win.

I'm trying to pin down what you're saying he'd use in a fight. What are you suggesting he's using to win? His magic?

Crimson Bands of Cytorrak don't chase down opponents. They trap them, instantly. If you have proof to the contrary, by all means show me. That's how they've always worked when I've seen them cast.

The bands don't chase, but if Doom starts casting and then Diana uses her superspeed to wrap him in a lasso, then the spell is cancelled, it's not going to complete. I've also never seen them cast on someone the caster doesn't know the location of, so if she uses her superspeed to be somewhere else, I think it wouldn't work.

The main thing is one cannot cast while tied with the lasso. It shuts down casters. Using superspeed to interrupt casting is another thing.

Yea, it does sound hostile. But suggesting that Ironman and Thing take down Doom or that Doom has never had to physically encounter Superman-level foes, etc.

I'm not saying Thing takes him down in a 1-on-1 fight, or that Doom has never physically encountered such a foe. I'm saying that Thing is capable of causing noticeable damage to him in a physical battle and he's never physically taken down Superman-class foes with his default set up.

doesn't leave me much room to do anything but quickly and unsubtley point out how much I disagree with you when you make such statements.

Sure it does- you could point out times when he has.

"Hey, he fought Thor with just his normal armor once and didn't just hold him off, but took him down" would work.

Otherwise it isn't arguing, it's just contradicting.

Originally posted by Q99
I didn't have the impression he 'laughed them off', but I'll take your word for it.

Still, are you saying it's anywhere near Diana's?

No. And nobody suggested it had to be. But it's enough when combined with his weapons, forcefields, magic, etc. that she'd be working for a win. Hard.

Originally posted by Q99
I think he'd need prep to grab a device that could specifically take down Diana. He has devices built in to his armor aplenty and I don't think he needs anything to use them, I just don't think those in his standard setup is up for this kind of task, and 'no prep' means standard setup to me.

I'm trying to pin down what you're saying he'd use in a fight. What are you suggesting he's using to win? His magic?

Magic is the easiest thing. Or Ovoid Mind Transfer for the insta-win and locking up his own armor with her in it.

Originally posted by Q99
The bands don't chase, but if Doom starts casting and then Diana uses her superspeed to wrap him in a lasso, then the spell is cancelled, it's not going to complete. I've also never seen them cast on someone the caster doesn't know the location of, so if she uses her superspeed to be somewhere else, I think it wouldn't work.

The main thing is one cannot cast while tied with the lasso. It shuts down casters. Using superspeed to interrupt casting is another thing.

Even assuming she can even insta-penetrate his forcefields before he finishes casting, I don't see how Wonderwoman would even have this plan in mind according to basic knowledge. She knows he's dangerous, a dictator and possesses a reknowned intellect. He knows she's super powerful near Superman-level. How does this translate to her thinking in a random encounter, "I must insta-penetrate his forcefields right now and tie him down before he can finish casting a magic spell!" ?????

Originally posted by Q99
I'm not saying Thing takes him down in a 1-on-1 fight, or that Doom has never physically encountered such a foe. I'm saying that Thing is capable of causing noticeable damage to him in a physical battle and he's never physically taken down Superman-class foes with his default set up.

Sure it does- you could point out times when he has.

"Hey, he fought Thor with just his normal armor once and didn't just hold him off, but took him down" would work.

Otherwise it isn't arguing, it's just contradicting.

The list of fights he has isn't very long and I labelled them by name. You pick out who you think is appropriate because we are clearly not operating on the same wavelength here. That's eminently clear when you suggest that I could simply say, "Oh, here's a time Doom beat Thor physically." as if it would end this. First off, that wasn't even the premise you started with. You said he's never gone up physically against anybody like Superman or Captain Marvel. I corrected you and responded he has in fact, fended off several foes on that level. Now you're trying to backtrack and switch your position into suggesting that in order for me to prove my assertion I must produce an instance where he actually beats a Superman-level foe physically. This isn't even subtle. It's blatant and the exact reason why I'm simply correcting you rather than "acquiescing" to your so-called "simple innocent requests for info," because you pretend to make one argument and when faced with a simple rebuttal, demand a wholly different set of circumstances and act like you haven't completely switched gears. This has occurred on several different issues you profess to be discussing. Try sticking with the parameters of an argument you yourself set up.

Otherwise it isn't arguing, it's semantic nonsense.

Standard setting is they're on a battle-field facing each other. He knows where she is. And nobody knows that Doom uses magic. Hell, even Ironman forgets it all the time.

Even assuming she can even insta-penetrate his forcefields before he finishes casting, I don't see how Wonderwoman would even have this plan in mind according to basic knowledge. She knows he's dangerous, a dictator and possesses a reknowned intellect. He knows she's super powerful near Superman-level. How does this translate to her thinking in a random encounter, "I must insta-penetrate his forcefields right now and tie him down before he can finish casting a magic spell!" ?????

Fun fact: Wonder Woman's super senses detect magic. She doesn't need to know squat ahead of time, she can sense it.

Also spells can't penetrate her lasso either, so she could spin it around herself and it'd bounce, it's a method she's used to protect others from magic before. The aegis field of her bracers might work too.

Also she could just zoom out of sight.

And her tiara can slice through anything, including force fields. She might be able to just use her brute strength too.

She is kinda not lacking in options here.

You did say that though. You said those things several times. Except for the last one. You're pretending like you've been saying that the whole time. And Thing can't do squat to him physically.

I said that Thing is a threat to him... and I'm under the impression that for most of Doom's lifespan, he is capable of hurting him.

The respect thread scans don't support the 'Thing can't hurt Doom' position either. http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Doom%20Fights/DoomvsFF12.jpg "The only time Doom stood against me this long was when he stole Surfer's power". Now, he's had a lot of upgrades since then of course, I'm pretty sure by the 90s he's the stronger of the two, but at that point his armor was weaker than Thing.

The list of fights he has isn't very long and I labelled them by name. You pick out who you think is appropriate because we are clearly not operating on the same wavelength here. That's eminently clear when you suggest that I could simply say, "Oh, here's a time Doom beat Thor physically." as if it would end this. First off, that wasn't even the premise you started with. You said he's never gone up physically against anybody like Superman or Captain Marvel. I corrected you and responded he has in fact, fended off several foes on that level.

And none of them in the respect thread have him doing so without stuff beyond his normal gear.

Heck, the scans support my position:
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Doom%20Fights/DoomvsIronMan06.jpg -Iron Man decks Doom and it clearly hurts.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...oomvsThor02.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...oomvsThor03.jpg

Doom in his own lab and expecting Thor, he holds off Thor for almost a minute but Thor's pretty much unhurt. He lost a prep fight!

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Doom%20Fights/DoomvsHulk02.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Doom%20Fights/DoomvsHulk03.jpg

Victor has trouble hitting Hulk (who's a lot easier to hit than Diana! Who has actual super speed) and is overpowered- even with his forcefield.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Doom%20Fights/DoomvsNamor22.jpg -Namor defeats Doom's armor.

Honestly going deeper into the respect threat makes me more confused about your position than anything else. It doesn't make me think it's obvious that Doom'll win- it's full of Doom having trouble with people of a lot less power and relying on power syphons, one-off gadgets, and so on, whenever fighting people near Wonder Woman's level, and without them he can generally delay them at best. His best shot is magic, which he tends not to pull as often as tech, and she's very well suited to countering for a variety of reasons.

Originally posted by Q99
Fun fact: Wonder Woman's super senses detect magic. She doesn't need to know squat ahead of time, she can sense it.

Also spells can't penetrate her lasso either, so she could spin it around herself and it'd bounce, it's a method she's used to protect others from magic before. The aegis field of her bracers might work too.

Also she could just zoom out of sight.

She can't spin the lasso around if her arms are pinned by the Crimson Bands. Wonderwoman can be touched from behind despite her aegis shield effect protecting her front side.

Yes, because she would BFR herself and run away every single time she "senses" her opponent is about to cast a magic spell. What Wonderwoman comics are you reading?

Originally posted by Q99
And her tiara can slice through anything, including force fields. She might be able to just use her brute strength too.

She is kinda not lacking in options here.

Originally posted by Q99
I said that Thing is a threat to him... and I'm under the impression that for most of Doom's lifespan, he is capable of hurting him.

The respect thread scans don't support the 'Thing can't hurt Doom' position either. http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Doom%20Fights/DoomvsFF12.jpg "The only time Doom stood against me this long was when he stole Surfer's power". Now, he's had a lot of upgrades since then of course, I'm pretty sure by the 90s he's the stronger of the two, but at that point his armor was weaker than Thing.

Pay attention: In that scan, Thing is having trouble battling a Doombot. Yeah. That's a Doombot, not even Doom. So in the 80's Thing was already having trouble with Doombots. Brownie points for trying though. You are in fact, looking through the Respect Thread for what it's worth.

Originally posted by Q99
And none of them in the respect thread have him doing so without stuff beyond his normal gear.

Heck, the scans support my position:
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Doom%20Fights/DoomvsIronMan06.jpg -Iron Man decks Doom and it clearly hurts.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...oomvsThor02.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...oomvsThor03.jpg

Doom in his own lab and expecting Thor, he holds off Thor for almost a minute but Thor's pretty much unhurt. He lost a prep fight!

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Doom%20Fights/DoomvsHulk02.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Doom%20Fights/DoomvsHulk03.jpg

Victor has trouble hitting Hulk (who's a lot easier to hit than Diana! Who has actual super speed) and is overpowered- even with his forcefield.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Doom%20Fights/DoomvsNamor22.jpg -Namor defeats Doom's armor.

Thor smashed Doom's machines. You make it sound like he didn't hurt Thor at all. Read the scans again, chuckles. And what you fail to realize it again proves you wrong when you suggested that Doom's never taken on Wonderwoman-level foes before.

Do you have any idea how old that fight against Savage Hulk is? And what you fail to realize it again proves you wrong when you suggested that Doom's never taken on Wonderwoman-level foes before.

Bloodlusted Namor. In. The. Water. Namor's one-shotted Extremis Ironman and beaten Savage Hulk in the water. And Doom's being double-teamed. And you're acting like this proves Doom isn't superior by a wide margin on Ironman and can't hang with foes on Wonderwoman's level?

Originally posted by Q99
Honestly going deeper into the respect threat makes me more confused about your position than anything else. It doesn't make me think it's obvious that Doom'll win- it's full of Doom having trouble with people of a lot less power and relying on power syphons, one-off gadgets, and so on, whenever fighting people near Wonder Woman's level, and without them he can generally delay them at best. His best shot is magic, which he tends not to pull as often as tech, and she's very well suited to countering for a variety of reasons.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Fun task: Show me where Wonderwoman senses magic, panics and immediately decides to respond with a superomgwtfspeedblitz combined with a lasso attack.

She can't spin the lasso around if her arms are pinned by the Crimson Bands. Wonderwoman can be touched from behind despite her aegis shield effect protecting her front side.

Yes, because she would BFR herself and run away every single time she "senses" her opponent is about to cast a magic spell. What Wonderwoman comics are you reading? Tiara hasn't shown to bypass forcefields. Ever. It can slice through stuff. Powerful in its own right, sure. Instantly destroying Doom's forcefield? Not really. As for her brute strength, she wouldn't get past it before Doom can cast a spell. Wonderwoman is no Sentry. No. Not at all.

Pay attention: In that scan, Thing is having trouble battling a Doombot. Yeah. That's a Doombot, not even Doom. So in the 80's Thing was already having trouble with Doombots. Brownie points for trying though. You are in fact, looking through the Respect Thread for what it's worth.
Doom not expecting a physical punch and getting punched once when he geared himself towards repelling energy attacks means what exactly?

Thor smashed Doom's machines. You make it sound like he didn't hurt Thor at all. Read the scans again, chuckles. And what you fail to realize it again proves you wrong when you suggested that Doom's never taken on Wonderwoman-level foes before.

Do you have any idea how old that fight against Savage Hulk is? And what you fail to realize it again proves you wrong when you suggested that Doom's never taken on Wonderwoman-level foes before.

Bloodlusted Namor. In. The. Water. Namor's one-shotted Extremis Ironman and beaten Savage Hulk in the water. And Doom's being double-teamed. And you're acting like this proves Doom isn't superior by a wide margin on Ironman and can't hang with foes on Wonderwoman's level? If you think Dr. Doom doesn't pull the magic card often, you're an idiot. I mean, that sounds mean. But really. That's just idiotic. And holding Wonderwoman off momentarily is all he needs to finish casting his spells or catching her gaze for the Ovoid Mind transfer or BFR'ing her through time, etc.

serious question:

where do you find the energy.

I'm serious.

Originally posted by shiv
serious question:

where do you find the energy.

I'm serious.

lol yeah I enjoy the debates here but yall got jobs and shit??

Anyway dumbgo, keep up the good fight!

BUMP

why chomper why!

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Tony has also conceded that Doom's armor and understanding of tech is beyond his.

IMO, it's actually pretty even based on feats and showings. Doom w/o prep doesn't exist; he's prepared for pretty much anything on hand thanks to his suit and his magic. Either one is more than capable of besting the other one-on-one in a random encounter. Giving Doom actual time to prepare makes it spite.

👆