Anti-Monitor Vs The UN

Originally posted by Omega Vision
WHat's the situation? Is the AM just sitting back and saying "sock it to me!" to whoever has the UN? If so then I can see the UN possibly working on him, at least weakening him like it did to MJJ. If its a fight though and the user is inexperienced AM wins hands down. The UN user would actually do better to try and nullify the AM universe to weaken the Monitor.

Some people think that the UN only has the ability to nullify. As I have said before Abraxas was not nullified hes concept(destruction) and being were erased, restarted and again Abraxas was trapped within Eternity and Galactus.
UN in the hands of Reed was multi-versal+, in the hands of galactus it could be mega-versal+

AM won't survive.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
WHat's the situation? Is the AM just sitting back and saying "sock it to me!" to whoever has the UN? If so then I can see the UN possibly working on him, at least weakening him like it did to MJJ. If its a fight though and the user is inexperienced AM wins hands down. The UN user would actually do better to try and nullify the AM universe to weaken the Monitor.

This isn't about inexperienced users it's about it's best feats vs. Am at his best.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
PM me why you think so and I will tell you why you are wrong

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I do think that I'm still disagreeing with your basic premise, that Anti-Monitor surviving the destruction/recreation conflagration speaks of his durability. I'm not sure I can agree with that because the heroes and sorcerers also survived.

Also, to further illustrate what I was thinking, I thought back to how that image compares to the original image that opens Crisis on Infinite Earths #1. As I think is fairly evident, that original black panel at the top of the second scan isn't really the multiverse being born or shuddering. We know what the multiverse being born looks like from the first scan's bottom panel. I think the plain presentation of the art reinforces my view. I know the second scan's narration makes it muddled, but I personally can't ignore the striking symmetry presented and assume that somewhere in-between the panels of the second scan, the multiverse was born and immediately destroyed, THEN the single universe is born. I think it's much more arguable that in the second scan, the multiverse was never born in the first place (since that was the Anti-Monitor's plan) and any narrative references to it could/should be explained as a reference to the Anti-Monitor's systematic destructive efforts during issues #1-10:

---->

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Or... I could have just saved myself that long-winded post about artistic symmetry and narrative references and posted this panel, which I should have found earlier, but didn't until now:

Anyway, yeah. In the third panel, Harbinger gives an account that confirms "the multiverse never existed." I think this added to the whole symmetry of the pages argument should lean the evidence over to my interpretation. If anything, that destruction/recreation conflagration was that of a single universe being born. Not a multiverse being destroyed/recreated.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Since this is a public debate thread, I don't mind airing it out in the open. Also, I find it convenient to just repost my opinion on this from another thread that was closed. The creation event involving Anti-Monitor and Spectre was not a birth of a Multiverse:

I just wanted to save some things from others, humor me, i though it might come in handy.

Anyway.

Technically speaking.

1. The DCU is born. Single Universe? Not really but not unlike the CoiE situation.
2. The DC Multiverse is created when Krona tries to see what happend before the birth of the Universe. (It explains the inconsistencies of the DCU and the alternate earths)
3. The DCU is born when AM and Spectre fight while Krona triggers the catastrophe. (DC way of handling the inconsitencies once more)

But and here is where you are wrong. The Universe was born and it wasn't the only one. The Anti-Matter Universe still existed, it was also created, that's why it's still a Multiverse. I don't want to add the Reality of the New Gods to this or the Vertigo Univereses but it would be reasonable.

So even then it was a Multiverse, more then one Universe, at least two 😉.

What we learned in the "recent" issues is that this Universe was still just an compact Multiverse and it was again seperated into 52 or more.

ODG, I think you are right and wrong. Yes, ONE universe was born during the blast after the events of COIE. However, it doesn't really matter. Why? The white light, or big bang always contained the same amount of energy whether Krona, AM, Monitors, Superman, or anyone else was there. Did they someone change the power of the big bang? Did they affect the blast? Did they weaken it? Not to my knowledge. They never one affected the big bang. That energy is always there. What happens with the energy is different. The blast (at first) was thought to create a multiverses, but not it only made one? How? Did they change the power? Redirect it? What?

Then there are still different universe(alternatives) like Vertigo, New Gods(if it's another universe I have no idea), and probably more.

Originally posted by xJLxKing
ODG, I think you are right and wrong. Yes, ONE universe was born during the blast after the events of COIE. However, it doesn't really matter. Why? The white light, or big bang always contained the same amount of energy whether Krona, AM, Monitors, Superman, or anyone else was there. Did they someone change the power of the big bang? Did they affect the blast? Did they weaken it? Not to my knowledge. They never one affected the big bang. That energy is always there. What happens with the energy is different. The blast (at first) was thought to create a multiverses, but not it only made one? How? Did they change the power? Redirect it? What?

Then there are still different universe(alternatives) like Vertigo, New Gods(if it's another universe I have no idea), and probably more.

👆

Originally posted by quanchi112
How can the Am avoid it?

This isn't about inexperienced users it's about it's best feats vs. Am at his best.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
I just wanted to save some things from others, humor me, i though it might come in handy.

Anyway.

Technically speaking.

1. The DCU is born. Single Universe? Not really but not unlike the CoiE situation.
2. The DC Multiverse is created when Krona tries to see what happend before the birth of the Universe. (It explains the inconsistencies of the DCU and the alternate earths)
3. The DCU is born when AM and Spectre fight while Krona triggers the catastrophe. (DC way of handling the inconsitencies once more)

But and here is where you are wrong. The Universe was born and it wasn't the only one. The Anti-Matter Universe still existed, it was also created, that's why it's still a Multiverse. I don't want to add the Reality of the New Gods to this or the Vertigo Univereses but it would be reasonable.

So even then it was a Multiverse, more then one Universe, at least two 😉.

What we learned in the "recent" issues is that this Universe was still just an compact Multiverse and it was again seperated into 52 or more.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
He may not have to avoid it. He survived a blast that unmade creation which is pretty much what the Ultimate Nullifier is to an extent.

The Anti-Matter universe still existed after COIE. So it was technically a multiverse (albeit the smallest possible multiverse). But you are right, it wasn't until IC that the Multiverse proper was remade.
Question: It's been a while since I've read COIE and I've forgotten but at the point that the Spectre rebooted everything had the AM already destroyed Earths 2 through 5?

Originally posted by Omega Vision
He may not have to avoid it. He survived a blast that unmade creation which is pretty much what the Ultimate Nullifier is to an extent.

The Anti-Matter universe still existed after COIE. So it was technically a multiverse (albeit the smallest possible multiverse). But you are right, it wasn't until IC that the Multiverse proper was remade.
Question: It's been a while since I've read COIE and I've forgotten but at the point that the Spectre rebooted everything had the AM already destroyed Earths 2 through 5?

^IIRC no. The Villains fought in the Timeline, they tried to stop Krona, if the Timeline still exists so does the Universe. Except of this, the Antimatter Universe which grows with each Universe it consumes (Making it a Universe as big as an Multiverse 😉 would be the only one left if those Universes would have been destroyed. Else The merged Universe wouldn't be an amalgam of the surviving Universes (Earth 2 Superman and Captain Marvel, JLA and JSA) because only those Universes which still existed before the reebot counted.

To the DC hater who struggles to make sense of all 😉. The blast remade everyone, it integrated everyone into the new Universe, except AM and Spectre who took the blast, one was send back to his Antimatter Universe (which absorbed the previous Multiverse) the other was in coma. Nasty experience I guess.

Oh and the terms and physics of both the Marvel U and the DC U work differently. Don't apply your Marvel biased Universal concept to the DC U, it won't work.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
^IIRC no. The Villains fought in the Timeline, they tried to stop Krona, if the Timeline still exists so does the Universe. Except of this, the Antimatter Universe which grows with each Universe it consumes (Making it a Universe as big as an Multiverse 😉 would be the only one left if those Universes would have been destroyed. Else The merged Universe wouldn't be an amalgam of the surviving Universes (Earth 2 Superman and Captain Marvel, JLA and JSA) because only those Universes which still existed before the reebot counted.

To the DC hater who struggles to make sense of all 😉. The blast remade everyone, it integrated everyone into the new Universe, except AM and Spectre who took the blast, one was send back to his Antimatter Universe (which absorbed the previous Multiverse) the other was in coma. Nasty experience I guess.

Oh and the terms and physics of both the Marvel U and the DC U work differently. Don't apply your Marvel biased Universal concept to the DC U, it won't work.

You seem to have missed the entire point.

Also, both characters who experienced the creation blast lived. Comparing this to the un's nullification is laughable.

Originally posted by quanchi112
I don't hate dc I despise dc fanboys. The scan was already posted with it stating universe. You can argue all you want, but the whole point of coie was to flesh things out and make sense of it all.

You seem to have missed the entire point.

Also, both characters who experienced the creation blast lived. Comparing this to the un's nullification is laughable.

Hm, you know that the big revelation that the Anti-Matter universe still exists and with it the AM was the big surprise of the very issue? The quote came from Harbringer and was before the big surprise, what did the staff of DC though while writing it? 😉 You don't have to understand it.

BTW i despise no one but i find Marvel fanboys really funny 😉.

And you are right comparing the birth of the entire DC U to the UN's nullfification power in the MArvel U is laughable. When the UN can erase the entire Marvel U (or Omniverse as it calls itself) we can talk again, till then it's just a nice gun 😉.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
Hm, you know that the big revelation that the Anti-Matter universe still exists and with it the AM was the big surprise of the very issue? The quote came from Harbringer and was before the big surprise, what did the staff of DC though while writing it? 😉 You don't have to understand it.

BTW i despise no one but i find Marvel fanboys really funny 😉.

And you are right comparing the birth of the entire DC U to the UN's nullfification power in the MArvel U is laughable. When the UN can erase the entire Marvel U (or Omniverse as it calls itself) we can talk again, till then it's just a nice gun 😉.

The un remade the entire marvel u in a heartbeat while it also erased the one being who was causing chaos throughout the multiverse. The creation event created stuff it's purpose wasn't to nullify/destroy. The un can do both with one simple press of a button in the right hands.

You asked for something which already happened. Ignorance. 😂

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
When the UN can erase the entire Marvel U (or Omniverse as it calls itself) we can talk again, till then it's just a nice gun 😉.

It can.
If someone on Galactus level or higher uses it.

the anti-matter universe exist in the same universe as the regular one.
its 1 universe
every universe has anti-matter within it.

a multiverse is two or more individual universes

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
the anti-matter universe exist in the same universe as the regular one.
its 1 universe
every universe has anti-matter within it.

a multiverse is two or more individual universes

Originally posted by Juntai
😕

a universe is composed of half regular matter and half anti matter.
its not a seperate universe, you can basicly fly to the side of the universe containing the anti matter

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
the anti matter universe is not really a individual universe.

a universe is composed of half regular matter and half anti matter.
its not a seperate universe, you can basicly fly to the side of the universe containing the anti matter

It is not a seperate universe because this is how I believe a real world universe works.

👆

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
Technically speaking.

1. The DCU is born. Single Universe? Not really but not unlike the CoiE situation.
2. The DC Multiverse is created when Krona tries to see what happend before the birth of the Universe. (It explains the inconsistencies of the DCU and the alternate earths)
3. The DCU is born when AM and Spectre fight while Krona triggers the catastrophe. (DC way of handling the inconsitencies once more)

But and here is where you are wrong. The Universe was born and it wasn't the only one. The Anti-Matter Universe still existed, it was also created, that's why it's still a Multiverse. I don't want to add the Reality of the New Gods to this or the Vertigo Univereses but it would be reasonable.

So even then it was a Multiverse, more then one Universe, at least two.

What we learned in the "recent" issues is that this Universe was still just an compact Multiverse and it was again seperated into 52 or more.

Originally posted by xJLxKing
ODG, I think you are right and wrong. Yes, ONE universe was born during the blast after the events of COIE. However, it doesn't really matter. Why? The white light, or big bang always contained the same amount of energy whether Krona, AM, Monitors, Superman, or anyone else was there. Did they someone change the power of the big bang? Did they affect the blast? Did they weaken it? Not to my knowledge. They never one affected the big bang. That energy is always there. What happens with the energy is different. The blast (at first) was thought to create a multiverses, but not it only made one? How? Did they change the power? Redirect it? What?

Then there are still different universe(alternatives) like Vertigo, New Gods(if it's another universe I have no idea), and probably more.

What you end up with, is this result: the power to destroy a planet in that single universe, is equal to the combined power required to destroy every single alternate version of that planet across the original multiverse. So Superman punching a planet in a single universe is equal to the combined power to destroy every single alternate version of that planet across the original multiverse. That's ridiculous. While your theory sounds like it makes sense on one level, it doesn't make sense when you try to extend it further logically. It's a single universe, nothing more, nothing less.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
He may not have to avoid it. He survived a blast that unmade creation which is pretty much what the Ultimate Nullifier is to an extent.

Question: It's been a while since I've read COIE and I've forgotten but at the point that the Spectre rebooted everything had the AM already destroyed Earths 2 through 5?

Answer: AM didn't destroy Earths 2 and 5. They still existed, but AM decided to travel to the dawn of time.

No. To suggest that the power of the Big Bang in that scene in Crisis on Infinite Earths #10 contained the same quantitative power as the one that birthed the original DC Multiverse is preposterous. You're essentially arguing that the power was just equally redistributed within a single universe rather than across an infinite amount of alternate universes. What you end up with, is this result: the power to destroy a planet in that single universe, is equal to the combined power required to destroy every single alternate version of that planet across the original multiverse. So Superman punching a planet in a single universe is equal to the combined power to destroy every single alternate version of that planet across the original multiverse. That's ridiculous. While your theory sounds like it makes sense on one level, it doesn't make sense when you try to extend it further logically. It's a single universe, nothing more, nothing less.

I am suggesting that the explosion/big bang, or whatever that gave birth to one single universe still had the same power that gave birth to the multiverse. It's not like the directly affected the big bang?