Batman-Prime: Frankly, I don't know how you post what you post when we can simply look at the history of the thread. This thread is only six pages long. You profess this in your last post:
Originally posted by Batman-PrimeWhen you said this only a few pages ago:
So again, I never said that the energies went to the Antimatter U post big bang. I said they went there and that happened, my bad for not adding that it was pre big bang, i though it was obvious as all the Universes were consumed pre big bang (not pre big bang in the timeline, just pre big bang in the story, i have to be more careful for you
Originally posted by Batman-Prime???
The blast remade everyone, it integrated everyone into the new Universe, except AM and Spectre who took the blast, one was send back to his Antimatter Universe (which absorbed the previous Multiverse) the other was in coma.
How you flip-flop between your positions or profess to not say things that you said is beyond me. And ultimately, at this point it is completely irrelevant. You now agree that the post-Big Bang antimatter universe didn't contain the energies of the previous multiverse. That's fine. I wholeheartedly agree with that. Whether you intentionally or unintentionally misled me doesn't matter one bit. What we know is the resulting single DC Universe (along with its antimatter universe) didn't contain the combined energies of the previous DC Multiverse. Therefore the creation event wasn't the same as had destroyed and recreated the Marvel Multiverse in an instant.
Originally posted by Batman-PrimeFrankly, you're a$$-backwards on this. And no amount of wordplay or wishful thinking changes what was illustrated, narrated and stated on-panel. The UN destroyed/recreated the entire Marvel Multiverse in a single blast instantly. The creation blast in Crisis on Infinite Earths was not the same thing.
A Multiverse was destroyed (with a thousands or more Universes) and an Multiverse (Anti-Matter + Universe + maybe more) was recreated, no contradiction. You were simply wrong.
First, whether you say so or not, a Multiverse wasn't destroyed at the end of Crisis of Infinite Earths #10. How do we know? Because if we simply follow the plot, we know that this is the dawn of time before the multiverse existed. We also know it wasn't a multiverse that was destroyed in the blast because the narration of the very last panel states:
"And the universe explodes around him."
What can I say? If someone suggested that the creation blast destroyed a multiverse, they're wrong (irrespective of what you're saying). And frankly, that's half of what the UN did instantly. Now the other half? The UN recreated the entire Marvel Multiverse in a blink. And the DC Multiverse was not recreated no matter how much you wished it was. How do we know? Because it's illustrated again and stated on-panel:
"For in that instant, a universe was born."
And if that's not clear enough for you, Harbinger explains it again,
"In that great battle with the Anti-Monitor, the universe was reborn.
Reborn from the dawn of time.
In this new universe-- the multiverse never existed."
So for all your protestations that a Multiverse was born, no it wasn't. Not according to the writers. And whether you equate that a single universe+antimatter universe = multiverse... is irrelevant. Because irrespective of my personal thoughts, that's not how DC considered it either.
So all we have in Crisis on Infintie Earths is a universe destroying/recreating blast. So here you are, suggesting that Anti-Monitor is high above a Multiverse destroying/recreating blast... when all he survived was a universe destroying/recreating blast? Slight difference, slick. No matter how much you personally want to label it differently. And really... the heroes and sorcerers also survived that attack. So surviving that creation blast doesn't really speak to durability anyway. How you arrive at your opinion, in the face of what DC actually writes? By all means, PM it to me if you want, or post it here now that we have this whole "supergrown antimatter universe" argument laid to rest.
See that'w where you misinterprete again.
"So again, I never said that the energies went to the Antimatter U post big bang. I said they went there and that happened, my bad for not adding that it was pre big bang, i though it was obvious as all the Universes were consumed pre big bang (not pre big bang in the timeline, just pre big bang in the story, i have to be more careful for you"
The blast remade everyone, it integrated everyone into the new Universe, except AM and Spectre who took the blast, one was send back to his Antimatter Universe (which absorbed the previous Multiverse) the other was in coma.
You talk about energies while I talk about the size. Quite differen't I hope you understand it better now that you posted it yourself. Quantity not Quality.
The point is you were wrong on two instances and you have trouble accepting that. For the Multiverse part I can humor you and respect your opinion as I wasn't clear enough it seems. As for the AM U not existing in the future during the dawn of creation fight, this will stay wrong.
"single DC Universe (along with its antimatter universe)" = DC Multiverse, Multiverse by definition more then 1 Universe. Simple.
As for where the energies of the previous Universe went, I told you my opinion. Which comes from the later crisises.
". The UN destroyed/recreated the entire Marvel Multiverse in a single blast instantly. The creation blast in Crisis on Infinite Earths was not the same thing."
I asked if it destroyed/recreated everything in Marvel (or a part of Marvel) but no one cared to answer, so thanks you for clearing this.
I did not claim that the UN blast is the same. I just doubt that it is as powerful as the amped spectre + the creation blast (or the creation blast alone). Again, misinterpreting me won't help. IMO AM still survives. Humor me, but i though we talked about the most powerful CoiE AM who absorbed the energies of the AM U which contained the Multiverse (except the surviving Universes) during the absorbing process. So he had Multiversal energies which should be enough to survive the UN IMO.
You still don't understand it.
The dawn of creation stays the same, the energy it releases are altered two times, once by Krona, which leads to the previous Multiverse, then by AM and Spectre fight which leads to an similar Multiverse like the very first one (similar yet still different enough, mind you), the one before Krona changed the outcome of the big bang. Since this might not be clear enough.
1. Normal DC U big bang, everything is fine.
2. Krona, DC U Multiverse with an infinite number of Universes (or 1000) + Antimatter Universe
3. AM/Spectre fight. DC U with one merged Universe and the revelation that the AM U still exists is here (Multiverse, like it or not)
4. Alexander Luthor triggers the birth of the new Multiverse, where this energies came from shrug though he had AM's remains, Kal-L as a key and Spectre.
The issue with the newborn Universe had it's big surprise in the revelation that the AM survived. So why spoil everything in the beginning? You are left with the Universe and the Antimatter Universe, which are technically a multiverse. I didn't claim anymore. 🙂
I also explained you the difference between the heroes surviving and the major players surviving.
The supergrwon Antimatter Universe term came from you. It is as big as the previous Multiverse it just lacks the same energies, which the AM needed to reach the dawn of time. But that the energies are still there should be obvious with the countdown to 52 and IC.
I don't know how to properly translate that proverb "Wir reden aneinander vorbei" but it means something along the line "we talk without understanding each other properly". You misunderstood me, that's ok with me. Your offensive way of debating though is not. 😉
^ Everything of what you posted is repetitive. You can say I was misinterpreted what you meant, but frankly, you weren't very clear at all. As it stands, the entire argument over a "supergrown antimatter universe" is null and void. I know you'd like to stay on that, because you professedly never gave up traction on your positions since we I was simply arguing with myself. But we're done with thaty. What we're left with and what you can't avoid, are your desperate attempts to characterize the creation blast as greater than or equal to what the UN did. Nope. The creation blast didn't destroy a multiverse, it didn't create a multiverse. You've said it yourself and it's justified on one level (I'm paraphrasing): It doesn't matter how I use the term "multiverse." It won't change what you think.
Well right back at you. I couldn't care less how you use "multiverse" because it doesn't change how I use it. The important difference between us? On-panel verification that DC agrees with me in the very same story we're arguing. No, the creation blast didn't create a multiverse, because they said so. Live with it.
And ultimately, you still haven't proven any difference between Anti-Monitor surviving the creation blast and the heroes/sorcerers surviving the blast. So irrespective of whether both DC and I disagree with your use of the term "multiverse," mere survival isn't a durability feat.
Read the comic. Rely less on equivocation and wordplay. The truth shall set you free. It's right there in the panels.
^I found the truth, you misinterpreted it.
I can live with that 😉.
It's sometimes easier to change the discussion to different parts of the story, parts supporting ones opinion best but that's not my way.
I prefer the context where it belongs and if I'm not clear enough I don't mind to repeat myself more clearly, trying to explain it better each time, till I feel understood, you might call it wordplay, I call it correctness.
I also don't mind accepting if i wasn't clear enough. Something you still have to learn.
Have a good day. 🙂
^ I'm happy you realized the error of your ways and found the truth. Let's recap it for everyone else: (i) The UN destroyed/recreated the entire Marvel Multiverse in a single blast instantly; (ii) the creation blast in Crisis on Infinite Earths wasn't greater and wasn't even equal. How do we know? By simply reading the comic. Universe destroying blast:
"And the universe explodes around him."
Universe recreating blast:
"For in that instant, a universe was born."
"In that great battle with the Anti-Monitor, the universe was reborn.
Reborn from the dawn of time.
In this new universe-- the multiverse never existed."
Any wordplay or equivocation over "multiverse" is pointless over this on-panel evidence. DC and this story couldn't care less how people want to use terms. They were clear with how they used em in the story. This is what I said in the beginning, and after some unfortunate wayward detours, still what I rely on in the end. How apropos.
Later.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ I'm happy you realized the error of your ways and found the truth. Let's recap it for everyone else: [b](i) The UN destroyed/recreated the entire Marvel Multiverse in a single blast instantly; (ii) the creation blast in Crisis on Infinite Earths wasn't greater and wasn't even equal. How do we know? By simply reading the comic. Universe destroying blast:"And the universe explodes around him."
Universe recreating blast:
"For in that instant, a universe was born."
"In that great battle with the Anti-Monitor, the universe was reborn.
Reborn from the dawn of time.
In this new universe-- the multiverse never existed."Any wordplay or equivocation over "multiverse" is pointless over this on-panel evidence. DC and this story couldn't care less how people want to use terms. They were clear with how they used em in the story. This is what I said in the beginning, and after some unfortunate wayward detours, still what I rely on in the end. How apropos.
Later. [/B]
A user of the UN who is smarter, has a pure soul and is more powerful than another person who has the exact same UN, would be able to do alot more damage. Assuming that this is Galactus he would be able to do a mega-versal destroying blast with the UN.
Originally posted by Batman-PrimeDon't see how posting panels that state "universe destroyed" and "universe was reborn ... multiverse never existed" is out-of-context. That's pretty much exactly the issue we're discussing. No need to be so embarrassed by the clear evidence which you cannot admit to yourself! After all, with all your backhanded insinuations, it's clear that admitting things to oneself is highly important to you. Thought I'd help foster that effort. Repetition can be key after all!
^repeating and reposting the same thing over and over again. Quoting things out of context etc. Post and copy, I know this pattern somehow though from another user. Your are quite similar in the end.
But in all seriousness: to each his own.
overall the ultimate nullifier is probably degrees of magnitude stronger than the anti monitor. however, in the contradictory way dc deals with its worlds its hard to say "i.e. the source wall even though it exists in one universe at a time is able to hold multiverse level beings off and similar things with the spectre etc.
Originally posted by Batman-PrimeNo kidding on that underlined part. And here I thought we were passing the last word back and forth like a hot potato! Ah well. C'est la vie.
Context, revelations, what is know and what not, when it is known and when are other things revealed. Whatever. I feel generous and give you the last word. More power to you.
Originally posted by shokosugiI see no reason to doubt the un erases him. None.
Anti Monitor wins NO DOUBT AT ALL.
Originally posted by Omega VisionWriting is inconsistent and the scan pretty much makes it clear.
I love how that scan says their combined power could decimate a solar system. The combined power of all those beings could destroy a Galaxy or more.
Originally posted by Knowsbleed33Reporting for attempting a funny. I really sincerely hope you will be funnier in 2010 than in years past.
Reported for telling the truth.UN wins this fight.