Originally posted by Nephthys
Considering that the Sith as a group don't give a crap about rules and part of their ideology is in fact transcending rules through strength and power, its always struck me as odd that a Sith has to be 'officially' given membership to qualify. If I was a sith and some whiny ghost came up to me and said 'You're not a Sith, stop calling yourself that', I'd be like 'Shut up, *****. Try and stop me,' and pimpslap him.Besides, according to Kreia being a Sith simply means you follow their teachings. That seems right to me.
This is quite possibly the gayest post on Sith ideology I've ever seen. But if it makes you feel better, a lot of people at TFN share this belief.
I'll happily explain to you why you're wrong: essential to the design of the Sith is that they are the most dangerous and most exclusive cult in existence. They share certain similarities with the Jedi Order; namely that one has to obey the Code and be recognized by established Masters and peers to be considered a Jedi. The Sith are no different, which is why Darths Andeddu, Bane, and Nihilus (among others) considered Krayt and company to be nothing but pretenders and jokes.
That is why Vader's Secret Apprentice is not considered by any source to be an actual Sith; same for Asajj Ventress; same for Lumiya. The reason? Because Bane's Rule of Two is essentially law when it comes to the Sith.
And I would also argue that the most successful Sith never break the rules: Bane and Sidious, for example, followed their chosen ideology til the day each of them died.
But even if I were to agree that the Sith should be relegated to the status of your typical Myspace and Facebook club (which is ridiculous), the fact remains that in order to bring balance to the Force, the Sith -- the real Sith -- must be destroyed.
They're dead. And they should stay dead.
This is quite possibly the gayest post on Sith ideology I've ever seen.
😍 You big flatterer you.
I'll happily explain to you why you're wrong: essential to the design of the Sith is that they are the most dangerous and most exclusive cult in existence. They share certain similarities with the Jedi Order; namely that one has to obey the Code and be recognized by established Masters and peers to be considered a Jedi.
Where is this stated. Because a certain Sith Lord disagrees with you. Sith Lord> You.
Me
The Sith are no different, which is why Darths Andeddu, Bane, and Nihilus (among others) considered Krayt and company to be nothing but pretenders and jokes.
Bane, Nihilus, Andeddu, Count Dooku (since he never formally trained Ventress as a Sith due to tha rules) Darth Sidious and , the granddaddy of them all, George Lucas (and me) > one insignificant Sith Lord.
I win. But what else is new? 😉
The Sith are no different, which is why Darths Andeddu, Bane, and Nihilus (among others) considered Krayt and company to be nothing but pretenders and jokes.
Actually I thought that was becuase he had betrayed the basic sith principle of 'survival of da fittist' by creating an order based on co-operation and helping each other to be stronger as a whole (which is what Kaan did as well) thus creating something that closer resembled a bastardised version of the Jedi Order.
Bane,
As I recall Bane didn't actually get inducted into the Sith either. He just started to call himself 'Darth' and restarted his new Sith order after the Thought bomb incident. So he's one to talk.
Nihilus,
Yeah, becuase he wasn't batshit insane.
Count Dooku (since he never formally trained Ventress as a Sith due to tha rules)
Actually it was becuase she hadn't proven herself. Plus he was going to have Anakin as his real apprentice as shown in the ROTS novel.
Darth Sidious
Where?
the granddaddy of them all, George Lucas
Lies.
one insignificant Sith Lord.
Well if you think about it Kreia taught Revan who taught Bane who created Sidious' order so you're technically disagreeing with the Big Cheese himself.
I win. But what else is new?
I watched Avatar. It was Epic.
(Don't tell Sexy. I hate agreeing with him)
As I recall Bane didn't actually get inducted into the Sith either. He just started to call himself 'Darth' and restarted his new Sith order after the Thought bomb incident. So he's one to talk.Bane also happens to be the sithari who was destined to do... well what he did, make them stronger. Krayt is a big NOBODY.
I'll happily explain to you why you're wrong: essential to the design of the Sith is that they are the most dangerous and most exclusive cult in existence. They share certain similarities with the Jedi Order; namely that one has to obey the Code and be recognized by established Masters and peers to be considered a Jedi. The Sith are no different, which is why Darths Andeddu, Bane, and Nihilus (among others) considered Krayt and company to be nothing but pretenders and jokes.
This is an argument of semantics. There is no metaphysical law that decides who is Sith who isn't. Say you have an extremely powerful Dark Jedi far into the future after Post-ROTJ. Say he decides to call himself a Sith and kick the Jedi shit in? Who's to say he isn't a Sith? In fact, who cares? Its a rather subjective thing when one thinks about it. The Sith are at the most an ideal, not some specific rigid order that only those of a certain criteria can be a member of.
The Sith themselves argue about it and in the end it just comes down to who kicks more ass in the Force.
Originally posted by Autokrat
This is an argument of semantics. There is no metaphysical law that decides who is Sith who isn't. Say you have an extremely powerful Dark Jedi far into the future after Post-ROTJ. Say he decides to call himself a Sith and kick the Jedi shit in? Who's to say he isn't a Sith? In fact, who cares? Its a rather subjective thing when one thinks about it. The Sith are at the most an ideal, not some specific rigid order that only those of a certain criteria can be a member of.The Sith themselves argue about it and in the end it just comes down to who kicks more ass in the Force.
That was kind of my point. On the other side of the spectrum, as Gideon stated, the sith have always had rules and orders they must follow, in one way or the other. From what we know about the EU (aside from the 3 I mentioned), a sith is someone who follows a particular set of traditions, ideals, and rules, and/or is recognized as such by his peers.
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
That was kind of my point. On the other side of the spectrum, as Gideon stated, the sith have always had rules and orders they must follow, in one way or the other. From what we know about the EU (aside from the 3 I mentioned), a sith is someone who follows a particular set of traditions, ideals, and rules, and/or is recognized as such by his peers.
I imagine this is what Lucas had in mind when he created them, but EU has in a way blurred the lines so often with Sith that it just turns into a jumbled mess.
Take these new True Sith, who the fvck are they? Or the Lost Tribe of the Sith. These lost tribe guys get married and have children and yet they're still Sith, apparently. Then you have the One Sith, the Rule of Two, the Rule of the Strong. To top it all off, you have an actual Sith species.
Its all a big mess.
Originally posted by Autokrat
Take these new True Sith, who the fvck are they? Or the Lost Tribe of the Sith. These lost tribe guys get married and have children and yet they're still Sith, apparently. Then you have the One Sith, the Rule of Two, the Rule of the Strong. To top it all off, you have an actual Sith species.Its all a big mess. [/B]
The True Sith are simple, although the concept is borderline retarded and the writer fo the new SW games is a moron. They're made up of one of the original ancient sith, and a bunch of newcomers. I'm assuming he molds the sith and recognizes ranks and all that jazz, so from Gideon's standpoint, they're legitimate, though stupid as a concept.
The Lost Tribe concept is probably almost as dumb as this new game. However, they ARE recognized by the ancient sith, which makes them lackeys, but sith nonetheless. Although i'm not really sure which canon source stated that the ancient sith allowed humans into their army.
Originally posted by NephthysIt is relevant. He is sorta like the chosen one for the sith. You're making it seem like he was just a force user who proclaimed himself a sith lord. It was fortold that he would remake the sith order. Sidious was the last of his order, so with the death of Sidious meant the death of the sith order. Darth Krayt did not follow the sith code, and therefore was not considered a true sith by the other sith lords.
Not really that relevant but what'evs.
Krayt can call himself a sith lord all he wants, but he is not the one who created the order. I can sit here and say I'm a mormon, but does that make it so if I don't practice it and follow it.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
It is relevant. He is sorta like the chosen one for the sith. You're making it seem like he was just a force user who proclaimed himself a sith lord. It was fortold that he would remake the sith order. Sidious was the last of his order, so with the death of Sidious meant the death of the sith order. Darth Krayt did not follow the sith code, and therefore was not considered a true sith by the other sith lords.Krayt can call himself a sith lord all he wants, but he is not the one who created the order. I can sit here and say I'm a mormon, but does that make it so if I don't practice it and follow it.
One COULD argue that because Krayt learned under one of the dark jedi that created the sith order, he is more deserving of his title than anyone before him.
Originally posted by Dr McBeefingtonI guess you can make an arguement. But when Bane remade the order, he set a code to follow by. He did away with a lot of things they use to practice back then, so when Krayt did not follow the new sith code created by the Sithari, he was considered a wannabe, and thus not a true sith. Krayt was following the ancient ways, which were done away with.
One COULD argue that because Krayt learned under one of the dark jedi that created the sith order, he is more deserving of his title than anyone before him.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I guess you can make an arguement. But when Bane remade the order, he set a code to follow by. He did away with a lot of things they use to practice back then, so when Krayt did not follow the new sith code created by the Sithari, he was considered a wannabe, and thus not a true sith. Krayt was following the ancient ways, which were done away with.
Yea but if Bane is allowed to remake the sith order, why isn't Krayt? I mean yes I do think he's a pretender but from the other side, it's a very compelling argument. He was trained by the spirit of the creators of the sith order, therefore he has the right to proclaim himself a sith.
Oh, joy.
First, the idea that Krayt can be considered a Sith because he received some teachings at the hands of Xoxaan (sp?) is ridiculous. Count Dooku taught Asajj Ventress, but every single source EVAR says that she is not a Sith.
If you want to consider Krayt a Sith, you might as well lump Mara Jade, Blackhole, Starkiller, Vergere, Lumiya, Sarcev Quest, Jeng Droga, and others, since they were trained by the most powerful and successful Sith in galactic history.
...But they're not; no one -- not Andeddu, not Karness Muur, not Bane, not Nihilus, not a single one recognizes Krayt as a legitimate member of the Sith Order.
George Lucas says in the Secret History of Star Wars that the Sith only number two. This is in accordance with Bane's law -- and as far as Bane is concerned, he was a Sith Lord under Kaan's Brotherhood of Darkness. The only difference is the title of Darth, which Bane assumed.
One (Darth) is a title, the other (is a structured way of life).
The Lost Tribe of the Sith? I suppose One could argue that they are real Sith, specifically educated and trained by leigitmate Lords of the Sith millennia prior.
George Lucas says that the Force was balanced by destroying the Sith; Sidious and Vader did not train successors. The Sith Order, the real Sith Order, is extinct.