Should Darth Sidious return once more?

Started by Dr McBeefington4 pages
Dr McBeefington Restricted

Originally posted by Gideon
Oh, joy.

First, the idea that Krayt can be considered a Sith because he received some teachings at the hands of Xoxaan (sp?) is ridiculous. Count Dooku taught Asajj Ventress, but every single source EVAR says that she is not a Sith.


I think you misunderstand my position. I'm not arguing canon. I'm simply stating that you and Veneficus have good points and that you might be mistaken if you take into account what I said. Why is the idea of Krayt being a sith because he trained under the tutelage of Xoxaan ridiculous? If anything, it should be a valid argument.

If you want to consider Krayt a Sith, you might as well lump Mara Jade, Blackhole, Starkiller, Vergere, Lumiya, Sarcev Quest, Jeng Droga, and others, since they were trained by the most powerful and successful Sith in galactic history.

THen what makes one a sith exactly? As far as I know, none of those were given sith teachings, as opposed to dark side knowledge. Lumiya might have come the closest because of the knowledge she possessed but she was never formerly instructed in the ways of the sith, nor was she recognized by anybody.

...But they're not; no one -- not Andeddu, not Karness Muur, not Bane, not Nihilus, not a single one recognizes Krayt as a legitimate member of the Sith Order.

Ok...? Nihilus didn't say anything, Muur didn't call him a pretender, Bane and Nihilus were both part of a different sith tradition insomuch that they would call the ancient sith heretics. I mean, you might as well call Nadd a pretender since he studied under the spirit of Sadow.

George Lucas says in the Secret History of Star Wars that the Sith only number two. This is in accordance with Bane's law -- and as far as Bane is concerned, he was a Sith Lord under Kaan's Brotherhood of Darkness. The only difference is the title of Darth, which Bane assumed.

One (Darth) is a title, the other (is a structured way of life).


...

George Lucas says that the Force was balanced by destroying the Sith; Sidious and Vader did not train successors. The Sith Order, the real Sith Order, is extinct. [/B]

Just wondering but did Lucas specify which Sith Order? I mean I'm not arguing because I would agree, but I would think Lucas meant Bane's sith order.

Red Nemesis The Blind Critic
George Lucas says in the Secret History of Star Wars that the Sith only number two. This is in accordance with Bane's law -- and as far as Bane is concerned, he was a Sith Lord under Kaan's Brotherhood of Darkness. The only difference is the title of Darth, which Bane assumed.

So then what's your position on the Ancients? Marka Ragnos had a lot of different disciples at once, as did Revan. It seems like Krayt is a lot closer to the original structure of the Brotherhood or the other ancients' (think Malak here) systems- systems that are more "legitimately Sith" than Bane's.

Don't get me wrong, I think it's the peak of gheynezz to have the Sith continue after Sidious. But I rationalize it differently: the chain was unbroken up to him. Ragnos led directly to Kun led directly to the Brotherhood led directly to Bane.

Spoiler:
And since Bane is the only sentience to obey the Rule of Two, his pseudonym of "Sidious" goes here too.
Lumiya doesn't count as a link any more than Mara Jade does.

(Mostly, your way is open to semantic wrangling, but if we define "Sithness" differently we can dodge the issue.)

truejedi Senior Member

You know, if they ever come out with all the comic books in one giant, book, i'm going to have to buy them and read them so i can have some idea what ya'll haz been talking about all these years. Then i can finally learn who darth krayt is.

Red Nemesis The Blind Critic

I'm still not sure what Marka Ragnos did. Or if Jolee was in love with the Sunrider that took out Kun? Everything not-Revan/Bane is pretty much a blur. I know about Kun from KotOR.

truejedi Senior Member

yah, same here. if it wasn't a novel or a video game, i don't know about it.

Gideon Restricted
RN
So then what's your position on the Ancients? Marka Ragnos had a lot of different disciples at once, as did Revan. It seems like Krayt is a lot closer to the original structure of the Brotherhood or the other ancients' (think Malak here) systems- systems that are more "legitimately Sith" than Bane's.

The ancient Sith existed prior to Darth Bane's Rule of Two; though it is interesting to note that Palpatine muses in the Rise of Darth Vader that a massive Sith Order was a corruption of the intent of the original Sith; they understood that power could not be shared amongst hundreds or thousands or millions.

RN
Don't get me wrong, I think it's the peak of gheynezz to have the Sith continue after Sidious. But I rationalize it differently: the chain was unbroken up to him. Ragnos led directly to Kun led directly to the Brotherhood led directly to Bane.
Spoiler:
: And since Bane is the only sentience to obey the Rule of Two, his pseudonym of "Sidious" goes here too.
Lumiya doesn't count as a link any more than Mara Jade does.
Spoiler:
WTF are you talking about? Bane wasn't the only sentient being to obey the Rule of Two nor is Sidious his pseudonym.

To be a Sith Lord is to be a legitimate member of a previously established order, not a self-proclaimed dark side magus. Lumiya is a prime example of a fake Sith Lord, a pretender, a joke.

Red Nemesis The Blind Critic

Spoiler:
Darth Bane mastered the essence transfer. He annexed Zannah's body and thus extended his lifespan. What's to stop him from repeating such an action an arbitrarily large number of times? Given that Bane is necessarily more knowledgeable in the Force than any given apprentice, it is not impossible that Bane has not only been the founder of the Sith Order following the dissolution of the Brotherhood, but that he is in fact the only Sith to have existed since then.

The ramifications of this possibility are astounding. Rather than a generations-long chain of master/apprentice contest we instead have a single individual, massively powerful in the dark side, given an eternity to perfect techniques, guide strategies and manipulate even the wisest mortals. Bane is the Sith Order. Bane is Sidious.

Autokrat Unknown

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Spoiler:
Darth Bane mastered the essence transfer. He annexed Zannah's body and thus extended his lifespan. What's to stop him from repeating such an action an arbitrarily large number of times? Given that Bane is necessarily more knowledgeable in the Force than any given apprentice, it is not impossible that Bane has not only been the founder of the Sith Order following the dissolution of the Brotherhood, but that he is in fact the only Sith to have existed since then.

The ramifications of this possibility are astounding. Rather than a generations-long chain of master/apprentice contest we instead have a single individual, massively powerful in the dark side, given an eternity to perfect techniques, guide strategies and manipulate even the wisest mortals. Bane is the Sith Order. Bane is Sidious.

Where were you when Drew told everyone Zhanna won?

Dr McBeefington Restricted

Still doesn't make sense. Krayt structured his organization based on the ancient sith, where you have one dark lord and many other sith, but he's not a legitimate sith? You need to do a better job explaining what a "sith" is then, Gideon. Otherwise all of these definitions don't make much sense.

Autokrat Unknown

I think its one of those issues where because GL said it, its canon. GL said there are no more Sith (or something along those lines), ergo there are no more Sith. Thats one of the issues with Star Wars; often the quotes given by sourcebooks and LFL don't correlate to the source material. Either that or they are simply ridiculous.

Dr McBeefington Restricted
Originally posted by Autokrat
I think its one of those issues where because GL said it, its canon. GL said there are no more Sith (or something along those lines), ergo there are no more Sith. Thats one of the issues with Star Wars; often the quotes given by sourcebooks and LFL don't correlate to the source material. Either that or they are simply ridiculous.

See I have no problem with accepting canon. However, I thought we were openly debating what exactly makes one a "sith", not taking into account GL's statements.

truejedi Senior Member
Spoiler:
yeah, Zannah won. Bane is dead. One little whiny darkjedi knows the secret to eternal life. But he is the only one. (be interesting if we ever find out what HE does with it.
mattatom UNSC's finest.

Darth Krayt is

Spoiler:
A'Sharad Hett a Jedi from the Clone Wars
the Reigning sith in the time of Cade
Spoiler:
Skywalker
he wears YV crab armour and sucks.

Gideon Restricted

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Spoiler:
Darth Bane mastered the essence transfer. He annexed Zannah's body and thus extended his lifespan. What's to stop him from repeating such an action an arbitrarily large number of times? Given that Bane is necessarily more knowledgeable in the Force than any given apprentice, it is not impossible that Bane has not only been the founder of the Sith Order following the dissolution of the Brotherhood, but that he is in fact the only Sith to have existed since then.

The ramifications of this possibility are astounding. Rather than a generations-long chain of master/apprentice contest we instead have a single individual, massively powerful in the dark side, given an eternity to perfect techniques, guide strategies and manipulate even the wisest mortals. Bane is the Sith Order. Bane is Sidious.

Spoiler:
Bane made an attempt to possess Zannah, but failed.

Way to assume facts not in evidence, jackass. 👆

DS
Still doesn't make sense. Krayt structured his organization based on the ancient sith, where you have one dark lord and many other sith, but he's not a legitimate sith? You need to do a better job explaining what a "sith" is then, Gideon. Otherwise all of these definitions don't make much sense.

It makes a ton of sense, and it's fairly obvious. I'll explain as clearly as I can.

Me
To be a Sith Lord is to be a legitimate member of a previously established order, not a self-proclaimed dark side magus.

The only legitimate self-proclaimed Sith Lords are the ones who started the religion way back when. Darth Krayt may have based the structure of his so-called "One Sith" on the ancient Sith, but that does not mean that he was a legitimate member of the ancient Sith's order, which is the ultimate point.

Krayt did not have a legitimate Sith Master who was a member of a legitimate Order. The last legitimate Order was Bane's; Vader and Sidious both died without training a Sith apprentice. The chain was broken, the Sith are extinct, and every single agent of the dark side after the fact is nothing but a pretender.

Your mistake is assuming that Krayt basing his so-called Sith off the ancient Sith = being a direct, legitimate heir to the ancient Sith themselves. This is not the case.

Dr McBeefington Restricted
Originally posted by Gideon
Spoiler:
Bane made an attempt to possess Zannah, but failed.

Way to assume facts not in evidence, jackass. 👆


Not sure if this is sarcasm or not, since it's what happened.

The only legitimate self-proclaimed Sith Lords are the ones who started the religion way back when. Darth Krayt may have based the structure of his so-called "One Sith" on the ancient Sith, but that does not mean that he was a legitimate member of the ancient Sith's order, which is the ultimate point.

I understand your quote before writing this, but here's the part I'm focusing on, bolded just for your pleasure.

I'll happily explain to you why you're wrong: essential to the design of the Sith is that they are the most dangerous and most exclusive cult in existence. They share certain similarities with the Jedi Order; namely that one has to obey the Code and be recognized by established Masters and peers to be considered a Jedi. The Sith are no different, which is why Darths Andeddu, Bane, and Nihilus (among others) considered Krayt and company to be nothing but pretenders and jokes.

My issue is that if you study sith doctrine and techniques under another sith, then you are yourself a sith. Otherwise Freedon Nadd is not a sith, nor is Darth Ruin, Darth Revan, or Darth Malak. Krayt, specifically, studied under and was recognized by Xoxaan, who helped create the order. So if you really are saying that studying under another sith, whether a holocron, spirit, or actual person, is not sufficient enough to be called a "sith", then we have a problem with many characters classified as sith.

Krayt did not have a legitimate Sith Master who was a member of a legitimate Order. The last legitimate Order was Bane's; Vader and Sidious both died without training a Sith apprentice. The chain was broken, the Sith are extinct, and every single agent of the dark side after the fact is nothing but a pretender.

I think we keep going back and forth. While it's debatable whether a simulacrum in a holocron constitutes as a sith master, we know that Krayt ultimately learned from SOMETHING of the ancient sith who created the order, and based his organization in many ways on the ancient sith.

Your mistake is assuming that Krayt basing his so-called Sith off the ancient Sith = being a direct, legitimate heir to the ancient Sith themselves. This is not the case. [/B]

So what you're saying is, unless you're a legitimate heir, you're not a sith? Meaning if you study under a holocron or a spirit, it doesn't count? If that's the case, then obviously your definitions are accurate, and we would have to discount certain individuals in the SW universe who are erroneously being called "sith".

Elok Quintly Sidious Worshipper

Originally posted by mattatom
Darth Krayt is
Spoiler:
A'Sharad Hett a Jedi from the Clone Wars
the Reigning sith in the time of Cade
Spoiler:
Skywalker
he wears YV crab armour and sucks.

An apt description.

mattatom UNSC's finest.

From reading the Legacy comics, it was all that was worth mentioning.

truejedi Senior Member

Gideon, i'm pretty sure Red was kidding. we had a conversation about how absolutley mindfvcked we would all be if Bane WAS sidious, and you, especially.

Dr McBeefington Restricted

As far as canon, Gideon is right because whatever GL says, it's canon. However, we're all having a difference in fundamentals in regards to anyone in the SW mythos being labeled a "sith".

Allankles Kwisatz Haderach
Originally posted by mattatom
From reading the Legacy comics, it was all that was worth mentioning.

C'mon. Legacy wasn't all that bad. It had its moments, namely Darth Wyyrlok's (sp?) badassery.