Originally posted by TheTyrant
So does Diana have FTL COMBAT speed? and by that I mean in a fight, not just running behind someone and grabbing them or whatever.and can WW resist telekenisis?
Someone had already posted some scans over in the Respect Forum with Diana blocking FTL attacks (multiple), and she has demonstrated being able to at least move/fight at sublight speeds (if not quite moving at FTL), which is close enough in a general Forum Fight. And as far as telekinisis, she is physically almost as strong as Superman, and has powerful flight ability (making resisting external forces not at all implausable). I don't think she would take Apoc in a stomp, by any means, but I think you really aren't understanding how powerful WW is in combat, especially as she's been written over the past 15 years or so. Now, Apoc would *own* her, totally, in the versatility department, but his versatility is the auto-win in this situation as you might like to think it is...
EDIT: Oh, and Tyrant -- I'm being serious about the links for scans you posted further up -- I think you accidentally linked to the wrong scans, 'cus the ones you link to don't show anything about what you're talking about...
Originally posted by galactusischere
Would you guys consider Ikaris above or below WW in terms of overall power?
See, that's too narrow a definition to make: Ikaris has a *broader* range of powers/abilities than WW does, and his long-term stamina/healing ability is much greater than hers, but her physical speed and skill are much greater (and un-amped, he doesn't have near her strength). Her bracers and lasso allow her to finesse some moves that would give her some edge in a battle with either Ikaris or Apoc (being able to rapid block super-fast attacks, or even wider area ones via her Aegis effect, and the lasso can bind any living/sentient thing, making teleportation/shape-shifting out of it extremely difficult, and generally impossible for most beings; ironically, a simple robot or animated golem would thwart the lasso more readily than either Ikaris or Apoc).
Originally posted by tideoftime
Actually, they were: that was the purpose of the challenge. Now, were they going all-out, balls-to-the-wall, save-the-world, blood-lust-on? Of course not. But they weren't playing, either.Maybe your understanding of WW's character is a bit more limited than you realize...
I'm not too sure about that. MMH did not phase, shapeshift in creative ways or use TP, was she already immune back then? Flash did not IMP, phase or vibrate and was probably not going anywhere near lightspeed there. PM tried to eat her? He did not make his way into her innards or go for the microscopic penetration of her cells and tissues to wreck her. Did Black Canary even scream? SM shot her with a gun and batman tried to kick her in the back of the head... It's still a very impressive feat for her but it's really not all that.
Regarding the fight apocalypse has some good chances, he's main difficulty will be handling hre speed. I think that intangibility and force fields would be better for him than teleportation as he lacks the reaction times to use it effectively against her. He also has area attacks and can BFR her.
If she immediatilly blitzes and uses the lasso he is pretty much screwed though.
Originally posted by tideoftime
Someone had already posted some scans over in the Respect Forum with Diana blocking FTL attacks (multiple), and she has demonstrated being able to at least move/fight at sublight speeds (if not quite moving at FTL), which is close enough in a general Forum Fight. And as far as telekinisis, she is physically almost as strong as Superman, and has powerful flight ability (making resisting external forces not at all implausable). I don't think she would take Apoc in a stomp, by any means, but I think you really aren't understanding how powerful WW is in combat, especially as she's been written over the past 15 years or so. Now, Apoc would *own* her, totally, in the versatility department, but his versatility is the auto-win in this situation as you might like to think it is...EDIT: Oh, and Tyrant -- I'm being serious about the links for scans you posted further up -- I think you accidentally linked to the wrong scans, 'cus the ones you link to don't show anything about what you're talking about...
Those scans WERE the ones he wanted -- if you read them very, very carefully, and use their sub-text in comparison with certain references about the speed of the various x-men in other comics, it can be inferred that Apocalypse has FTL speed feats. 🙂
No, I'm kidding. But sometimes Apoc fans really do remind me of Talmudic scholars, trying to make all kinds of crazy arguments from little scraps of dialogue.
753I'm not too sure about that. MMH did not phase, shapeshift in creative ways or use TP, was she already immune back then? Flash did not IMP, phase or vibrate and was probably not going anywhere near lightspeed there.
This is right before her latest immunity upgrade, but she had the lasso so telepathy would be unlikely to work anyway (Diana was always one of the more resistant).
IMP requires a huge run-up, I'm not sure if he could do it inside the watchtower, and it isn't a common move by him even in serious fights. He was definitely moving somewhere above mach speed, as they commented her ears were useless and she needed to anticipate rather than hear like she did with the others, but it's hard to tell how fast he was going.
She's hit Flash while he's going at high combat speeds on other occasions (like when he was infected with the Starro conqueror strain).
Originally posted by Simbon
Those scans WERE the ones he wanted -- if you read them very, very carefully, and use their sub-text in comparison with certain references about the speed of the various x-men in other comics, it can be inferred that Apocalypse has FTL speed feats. 🙂No, I'm kidding. But sometimes Apoc fans really do remind me of Talmudic scholars, trying to make all kinds of crazy arguments from little scraps of dialogue.
I think he meant faster than light combat teleportation, meaning he can move between points faster than light could, not that he has ftl reflexes
Originally posted by Konton
But she's so much faster than him teleportation isn't a big deal. Just like it wouldn't be a big deal if Nightcrawler was fighting her.Queen of Fables is skyfather level and Genocide is made from the soil of a dead Wonder Woman so it's sketchy. It also helps that Genocide is way stronger than Diana AND Superman. And since you brought up Genocide, take into account Diana ended up pwning her with speed and skill even though she had superior strength and teleportation.
The size of a building! Hard as Adamantium! Teleportation! Can read Minds! Tiara won't do Squat at that size. + It will just heal over instantly!
If she throws the tiara she loses it!. If she hits him he hands enter goo and it solidifies. Countles options for nonPIS CIS Apocalypse...I say Apoc wins!
I know I was just mocking Apoc fans and their assessments of his powers a little while ago, but now that I think about it I am little uncomfortable with the assumption we are making that Diana's speed automatically wins this. Isn't this combo to KO principle getting too much credit here? If characters possess an indeterminate level of superspeed, should we automatically make assumptions about their limitations in a forum-fight? I mean, if character X has on multiple occasions shown himself able to overcome opponents with superspeed, is the onus on him to prove that he can go AS FAST as character Y, or on character Y to show that attacks as fast as theirs have overcome character X in the past? I think it must be the latter. If not, then there is no reason to believe that Diana won't also be putting the beat-down on Thanos, Odin, or even Galactus. From this standpoint, I don't think we can assume that Diana will just speed-blitz him, which will make the battle very hard for her to win except via lasso (though I don't know where people are coming up with this adamantium sky-scraper crap -- too much X-men:TAS methinks). Either way, the fight would take an INCREDIBLY long time before it was over; probably so long that even the writers would get exhausted from filling in Apoc's zeppelin-sized speech bubbles.
I don't think her speed automatically wins it, but it's a nice advantage, offensively and defensively, especially with her bracers.
Since we're currently talking CIS and PIS off, she's going to be zapping him with lightning of Zeus, attacking with the tiara (even if he's huge, there's still stuff like going for the eyes), and so on.
Apoc gains a lot from CIS/PIS off, but so does Diana.
If not, then there is no reason to believe that Diana won't also be putting the beat-down on Thanos, Odin, or even Galactus.
There is the difference that her attacks can definitely hurt Apoc, while hurting Odin and Galactus is harder, and those three have options/levels of power that Apoc doesn't. Odin or Galactus could do an omnidirectional blast strong enough to take her out.
Originally posted by Q99
I don't think her speed automatically wins it, but it's a nice advantage, offensively and defensively, especially with her bracers.Since we're currently talking CIS and PIS off, she's going to be zapping him with lightning of Zeus, attacking with the tiara (even if he's huge, there's still stuff like going for the eyes), and so on.
Apoc gains a lot from CIS/PIS off, but so does Diana.
There is the difference that her attacks can definitely hurt Apoc, while hurting Odin and Galactus is harder, and those three have options/levels of power that Apoc doesn't. Odin or Galactus could do an omnidirectional blast strong enough to take her out.
What you say is true, and the lightning is probably her best bet, but I think you may be underestimating how difficult it will be to beat Apoc in a physical fight without overwhelmingly superior speed (I mean fast enough that Apoc can't respond). He has been shown putting the smack-down on a LOT of heavy-hitters, without ever being seriously injured by punches and such from other characters. His morphing and healing factor will be difficult, if not impossible for Diana to overcome, and while his energy attacks won't do anything to her (bracers), it's not clear how much damage the lightning will do given his energy-manipulation/absorption powers. Still, most of his losses seem to be at the hands of piercing damage or energy manipulators, so who knows. God knows Marvel could have made things easier on us by giving Apocalypse a power-set that was actually consistent with his appearances, so that we would have better grounds to discuss his capabilities.
Originally posted by Q99
Hah, he is not hard as adamantium 🙂
He can though! He is just a badly written character! Or intentionally weakened so that characters can actually beat him. No PIS/CIS Apocalypse can channel the very area around him and TK Flying characters or trap them with him in Semi teleportational loops. Thanos was deeply impressed by him. She's not punching a being bigger than Galactus and hard as Adamantium while the air around her becomes TK solidified!
beating Prime Eternal Ikarus
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y37/Nightmareman95/apocmorph3.png
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y37/Nightmareman95/apocmorph4.png
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y37/Nightmareman95/apocmorph5.png
Example of TK holding flying types
http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/1774/exodusorigin13kw0.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y37/Nightmareman95/powers18.png
