Classic Unstoppable Juggernaut vs Odin-Force Thor

Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
When you get knocked down do you levitate up or something? His other arm could just be blocked by his massive body also.

As for Thor beating Juggernaut without his shield, Cain still has his healing factor which has been touched on more-so after that Thor fight. He is not going down to Thor's punches, shield or no shield.

If you still think he does, Cain brings a gun to the fight and shoots Thor. 😖hifty:

D'Spayre was a high extreme. Besides, it's not how comics work. In that very issue, Juggernaut believed he was about to be destroyed....while walking around as a skeleton. ermm

Strong healing factors don't translate into I-can't-be-knocked-out as Hulk, Wolverine and most other uber healers can attest to. Doesn't make sense, but it is what it is.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
D'Spayre was a high extreme. Besides, it's not how comics work. In that very issue, Juggernaut believed he was about to be destroyed....while walking around as a skeleton. ermm

Strong healing factors don't translate into I-can't-be-knocked-out as Hulk, Wolverine and most other uber healers can attest to. Doesn't make sense, but it is what it is.

If he can take the pain of having his flesh ripped from him, then he isn't going down to punches from Thor or Hulk.

Juggernaut may have believed that, but he was surprised that after D'Spraye had taken "all" of his power away, that he was still standing, with more power. As long as he has the right motivation, he shouldn't lose to any physical encounter.

captain universe knocked him out

Yup. He beat that ass black and blue, then left him in a coma. To be fair, some psychic power was involved IIRC.

Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
If he can take the pain of having his flesh ripped from him, then he isn't going down to punches from Thor or Hulk.

Juggernaut may have believed that, but he was surprised that after D'Spraye had taken "all" of his power away, that he was still standing, with more power. As long as he has the right motivation, he shouldn't lose to any physical encounter.

Like I said, that's not how comics work. Wolverine has been stripped to the bones, and Hulk has come extremely close to that state to. Heck, I think even Diana might have at one point or another. A powerful healing factor, or in this case an enchantment that prevents one from dying, doesn't mean you can't be knocked out as history attests.

IIRC, Juggernaut made the comment at the near end of the issue after the power stealing and everything. He was preparing himself for death until D'Spayre's sister intervened. The mere fact that the notion was presented supports my point. Comics don't make a lot of sense.

Spider-Man commented on how each Cap Universe's power set was different. The user at the time had an extreme hatred for Juggs, and the power molded around that. He ended up just ripping his helmet from him and mind blasting him. The cover was very misleading.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Like I said, that's not how comics work. Wolverine has been stripped to the bones, and Hulk has come extremely close to that state to. Heck, I think even Diana might have at one point or another. A powerful healing factor, or in this case an enchantment that prevents one from dying, doesn't mean you can't be knocked out as history attests.

IIRC, Juggernaut made the comment at the near end of the issue after the power stealing and everything. He was preparing himself for death until D'Spayre's sister intervened.

A guy who is the embodiment of durability in Marvel is in a different league/class than Wolverine. He is made to take punches shield or not. Also, when Wolverine was stripped to his bones, he was not standing ready to fight. He was passed out for a while till he healed.

Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
A guy who is the embodiment of durability in Marvel is in a different league/class than Wolverine. He is made to take punches shield or not. Also, when Wolverine was stripped to his bones, he was not standing ready to fight. He was passed out for a while till he healed.

The point stands. I don't care that Juggernaut is empowered by Cytorrak. You're arguing that Juggernaut cannot be knocked out or put down because of that one instance with D'Spayre. Not only are you passing off that extreme showing as some type of norm, it's not how comics operate.

I've seen Wolverine climb out of a vat of molten steel as nothing but a skeleton.

srug

And embodiment of durability? ermm

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
The point stands. I don't care that Juggernaut is empowered by Cytorrak. You're arguing that Juggernaut cannot be knocked out or put down because of that one instance with D'Spayre. Not only are you passing off that extreme showing as some type of norm, it's not how comics operate.

It is not just with D'Spraye, it is also all the other times he has fought without his shield and not been KO'd. While I think Thor is overall more powerful than Hulk, Juggernaut took harder punches (w/o his shield) against WWH and was not KO'd. Also a weakened Juggernaut took punches, straight to the head, from a Hyperion that supposedly killed Thor and Hulk in other dimensions. And yes, that was supposed to be King Hyperion from the Exiles.

I gotta go take an exam, later.

Ok to just kind of some up these posts into one.

Like I've said before and on more than one occasion Cain has exhibited what could be clearly defined as moments of pain only to have him so no effect to the attack at all. Like I mentioned before Nightcrawler throwing a torch into his eyes and acting like it hurt even though he has had molten metal poured unto him with no effect or show of pain.

And yes those punched from WWH Hulk and Prof/Merged Hulk would fall into that category. You may say but clearly he said something that indicated it effected. While normally I would agree with most other characters with Cain you've got to take those reactions with a grain of salt considering his history of acting like things effect him when after wards they clearly haven't.

As for Nightmare, the Nightmare in that arc was when he was about to f up all of reality and had just beaten Dr. Strange and was mentally mind rapping him to keep Strange from freeing Eternity who Nightmare had supposedly captured. Cain was able to stalemate that version of Nightmare.

Like I've said Cain's attitude and mindset at the time tends to be the determining factor with how he interacts with attacks and other people.

As for Captain Universe I'm starting to notice a trend with things like these. I an not certify this for certain but I think character calling upon higher level mystic powers can effect Cain based simply on the fact their presence alone maybe enough to screw with his connection to Cyttorak.

Like War Hulk w/ the Celestial Technology or Shatterstar's sword or the Captain Universe. I'm not saying its a guaranteed thing either because I've always thought the more focused Cain is the stronger his connection becomes the more power he takes in. Like in the next issue Cain was able to go Toe to Toe with Captain Universe and was winning until CU had to resort to mind whamming him.

Silent also think Thor can't fly without Mjolnir and can be killed by mere bullets.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Silent also think Thor can't fly without Mjolnir and can be killed by mere bullets.

Why are you lying?

Lying.. How am I lying? You're saying that we take ONE writer's take on Juggs Forcefield being tied to his invulnerability.. and go... it counts since we saw it on panel. Even though countless writer since then and before never had such a connection established. What's worse a simple forcefield from Thor was able to do that, yet Cyttorak himself couldn't take juggs own power away for some reason? Yet Thor has never done so before or since... Ooo that's right because Juggs invulvernablity hasn't been portrayed as such again. Thus, if you think that is a valid showing that we can act as if it's fact.. and it takes one showing to do so.. you MUST think Thor can't fly without mjolnir because that in fact has been shown a few times. Just like Thor getting shot and KO'd by a bullet has been shown before. So either you side with the majority of takes by writers or the minority. It's that simple. You're defending the minority take on juggs at this time, so I can only guess that is your stance for all. Or is are you just being hypocritical?

I'm saying that there is one instance of it working and zero examples of it failing; therefore you have no grounds to dismiss it.

All I read was the one writer bit. DeFalco is clearly not the only writer who believes Cain can be harmed by sufficient physical force. I.e. Top Tiers and such. DeFalco just interwined the field into his portrayal, which is the best way to reconcile Juggernaut's showings imo.

Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
It is not just with D'Spraye, it is also all the other times he has fought without his shield and not been KO'd. While I think Thor is overall more powerful than Hulk, Juggernaut took harder punches (w/o his shield) against WWH and was not KO'd. Also a weakened Juggernaut took punches, straight to the head, from a Hyperion that supposedly killed Thor and Hulk in other dimensions. And yes, that was supposed to be King Hyperion from the Exiles.

I gotta go take an exam, later.

Do you really not see the flaw in this line of thinking?

I don't understand how you think those two scenes support it being impossible to knock Juggernaut out (He was hurt physically in both of them) Especially Cain being beaten to a bloody pulp by Hyperion (And I'm not impressed by killing alternate reality characters) Cain withstanding a handful of attacks from Green Scar and not being noticeably damaged is something I would expect by the way.

Good luck.

Originally posted by Silent Master
I'm saying that there is one instance of it working and zero examples of it failing; therefore you have no grounds to dismiss it.

Ooo I see.. So are there any other instance of Thor being shot by the same type of weapons with the same bullets that KO'd him and made him bleed? There isn't... thus there is nothing to dismiss that showing.

Except, Thor has been shown to be uninjured after being shot with higher caliber bullets, so there is every reason to dismiss that one.

The bullet thing was a gigantic low showing for Thor

Originally posted by psycho gundam
The bullet thing was a gigantic low showing for Thor

IIRC, the writer even apologized and said that he didn't know much about Thor.

Matters not, Cyttorak is EXPONENTIONALLY greater at shielding/taking away Juggs invulnerability than Thor.. yet he couldn't. Thus, higher calibur bullets don't matter either. Fact is, it worked once, you're okay with that (even though other showings prove otherwise) so I'm okay with it. By the way.. which higher calibur bullets are you referencing?

Cyttorak didn't try and block it, you're comparing apples and oranges.