Originally posted by supremthor
and until LT has a has a greater feat then that of a weakened Mandrakk, no his not, and that goes for LT as well i generally place LT,Beyonder, Lucifer on the same level with a difference in power being slim to none.
Beyonder>>>>>>>>>>LT>Mandrakk>>Lucifer
Pre-Retcon Beyonder Killed Death and LT didn't do shit.
Living Tribunal could only try to TALK to Beyonder rather than fight him.
Mandrakk was eating all reality. Living Tribunal has helped create the omniverse. He probably can destroy it with a gesture.
they have zero chance of getting past 4, the endless are a lot cooler than they are impressive. eternity contains the concepts of 6 of them and a lot more crap within himself and marvel death matches the endless death - maybe surpasses it as the endless one is just one aspect of death and has to share the stage with nekrom etc. Then there are still another half a dozen abstracts for all your needs.
the problem with the endless is that only death, destruction and destiny represent anything really impressive, the others are avatars of states of conscience and human emotions. They are part of an inwards, reflexive, anthropocentric narrative - excelent by the way - that revolves arround existential questions and human drama, infinty/eternity are nature itself
Originally posted by galactusischere
[B]Beyonder>>>>>>>>>>LT>Mandrakk>>Lucifer
Can't comment on Mandrakk as I haven't read the story, but I disagree on LT being > Lucifer.
Lucifer has the same station as LT, being just beneath DCU's top god, and he has the feats to match anything LT's done, like the famous explosion he took from his brother with zero damage, and than shaping his own multiverse out of it complete with crafting concepts like "time"...
Originally posted by 753
they have zero chance of getting past 4, the endless are a lot cooler than they are impressive. eternity contains the concepts of 6 of them and a lot more crap within himself and marvel death matches the endless death - maybe surpasses it as the endless one is just one aspect of death and has to share the stage with nekrom etc. Then there are still another half a dozen abstracts for all your needs.the problem with the endless is that only death, destruction and destiny represent anything really impressive, the others are avatars of states of conscience and human emotions. They are part of an inwards, reflexive, anthropocentric narrative - excelent by the way - that revolves arround existential questions and human drama, infinty/eternity are nature itself
The part of Death is more due to clumsy insertion than anything else. Gaimon's world takes place within the DC universe, which already had concepts of Death such as the Black Racer and Nekron. Also, Johns just retconned Nekron's origin.
Originally posted by Johnny Sorrow
The part of Death is more due to clumsy insertion than anything else. Gaimon's world takes place within the DC universe, which already had concepts of Death such as the Black Racer and Nekron. Also, Johns just retconned Nekron's origin.
True, but hell lords and death goddesses tend to be a dime a dozen. See: Hela and Death in Marvel. Mephisto too.
Re: Re: Re: Re: The Endless run a gauntlet...
Originally posted by supremthorwhen was this ever stated in Secret Wars? you are looking way past his actual feats in SW. Yes Doom gave him full understanding of his powers, but he was not in anyway above LT. the way his powers worked was he had control over all existing matter around him on a large scale, to the point were he could control living matter. But he was not in anyway unkillable, and his molecularwas not on a inversal scale as some whom havent fully read the whole SW series would think. and his powers didnt work past more abstract concepts like Time, Death, Magic etc. In a Sense his was like a Lucifer light in terms of controlling his surrounding matter to what ever effect he want like giving other people powers.
"some whom havent fully read the whole SW series would think"
😐 ... What books were you reading friend? Or is it you never read SW II?
Originally posted by Johnny Sorrow
The part of Death is more due to clumsy insertion than anything else. Gaimon's world takes place within the DC universe, which already had concepts of Death such as the Black Racer and Nekron. Also, Johns just retconned Nekron's origin.
Come to think of it, there's a lot of this in comics..
The Antigod/Decreator in Morrison's Doom Patrol was supposed to have been made when The Presence said "Let there be light", and cast it's first shadow. But that kind of steps on the heels of The Great Evil Breast, a.k.a. The Original Darkness..
And the whole Mandrakk and Over-Monitor thing has it's own set of headaches... Does it exist within the larger scope of The Presence's creation? Or, is The Presence itself just a part of this larger organism?... Do the 5d imps also exist as bacteria within it? And don't even bring in Vertigo, where we actually see outside of DC's creation... And the same thing applies to Mandrakk and The Endless. If the Over-Monitor is just an aspect of DC creation, than that means The Endless have dominion over it.
Kind of hard to say whether The Endless get past Mandrakk or not without knowing it's relationship to the hierarchy of DC's creation.
But I'm pretty sure Lucifer could stop them. Death herself was afraid of Lucifer on his death bed, and Michael (Roughly Lucifers equal) pushed around Destiny in his own realm, so Lucifer should be above even the combined group.
Originally posted by cdtm
Death alone could take Eternity.Hell, Eternity is one of the biggest jobbers among abstracts. Who "hasen't" hurt or affected the poor embodiment of all that is 😛
well, marvel death/oblivion certainly will someday. But right now I doubt either them or gaiman's death could really take him - it's a stalemate that lasts for an eternity until the universe finally ceases to be and then death/oblivion swallow all
DC death does say she stays until the last thing dies and then turns off the lights of the universe, but the fourth rank of the gauntles has oblivion and he outlast even that and takes her within himself once there is nothing left to die. there is no way they can win.
the seven friendless have entropy and his feat alone dwarves all the endless too
the endless are screwed, largely because only 3 of them represent anything important. seriously, what are desire, dream, delirium and despair gonna do here?
Originally posted by cdtm
Can't comment on Mandrakk as I haven't read the story, but I disagree on LT being > Lucifer.Lucifer has the same station as LT, being just beneath DCU's top god, and he has the feats to match anything LT's done, like the famous explosion he took from his brother with zero damage, and than shaping his own multiverse out of it complete with crafting concepts like "time"...
I think it would take both michael and lucifer to make up the LT
Originally posted by cdtm
Come to think of it, there's a lot of this in comics..The Antigod/Decreator in Morrison's Doom Patrol was supposed to have been made when The Presence said "Let there be light", and cast it's first shadow. But that kind of steps on the heels of The Great Evil Breast, a.k.a. The Original Darkness..
And the whole Mandrakk and Over-Monitor thing has it's own set of headaches... Does it exist within the larger scope of The Presence's creation? Or, is The Presence itself just a part of this larger organism?... Do the 5d imps also exist as bacteria within it? And don't even bring in Vertigo, where we actually see outside of DC's creation... And the same thing applies to Mandrakk and The Endless. If the Over-Monitor is just an aspect of DC creation, than that means The Endless have dominion over it.
Kind of hard to say whether The Endless get past Mandrakk or not without knowing it's relationship to the hierarchy of DC's creation.
But I'm pretty sure Lucifer could stop them. Death herself was afraid of Lucifer on his death bed, and Michael (Roughly Lucifers equal) pushed around Destiny in his own realm, so Lucifer should be above even the combined group.
Yeah final crisis is all over the place, but abstracts in general are redundant and confusing because writers ignore previous characters who already embody a concept
Originally posted by cdtm
Come to think of it, there's a lot of this in comics..The Antigod/Decreator in Morrison's Doom Patrol was supposed to have been made when The Presence said "Let there be light", and cast it's first shadow. But that kind of steps on the heels of The Great Evil Breast, a.k.a. The Original Darkness..
And the whole Mandrakk and Over-Monitor thing has it's own set of headaches... Does it exist within the larger scope of The Presence's creation? Or, is The Presence itself just a part of this larger organism?... Do the 5d imps also exist as bacteria within it? And don't even bring in Vertigo, where we actually see outside of DC's creation... And the same thing applies to Mandrakk and The Endless. If the Over-Monitor is just an aspect of DC creation, than that means The Endless have dominion over it.
Kind of hard to say whether The Endless get past Mandrakk or not without knowing it's relationship to the hierarchy of DC's creation.
But I'm pretty sure Lucifer could stop them. Death herself was afraid of Lucifer on his death bed, and Michael (Roughly Lucifers equal) pushed around Destiny in his own realm, so Lucifer should be above even the combined group.
It's mind-bending stuff. 😖
Also, she was not scared of him. He just made it clear that she has no authority over him if he desires it.
Originally posted by Johnny Sorrow
It's mind-bending stuff. 😖Also, she was not scared of him. He just made it clear that she has no authority over him if he desires it.
True, but she also didn't contradict him when he threatened what he could do to her once he got his full powers back.
Anyways, her mere presence in Lucifers universe at least suggest The Endless aren't limited to a single universe.. Like, I couldn't see Marvel's Death traveling outside of her normal universe to deliver a message, because she's tied to her resident universe. She wouldn't be able to exist outside of it..
Originally posted by cdtm
True, but she also didn't contradict him when he threatened what he could do to her once he got his full powers back.Anyways, her mere presence in Lucifers universe at least suggest The Endless aren't limited to a single universe.. Like, I couldn't see Marvel's Death traveling outside of her normal universe to deliver a message, because she's tied to her resident universe. She wouldn't be able to exist outside of it..
marvel death exists, or more precisely operates, in the whole omniverse simultaneously, no travel is necessary. In a way she exists outside all those universes too, because her and oblivion's realms are not part of eternity/infinity.