The Endless run a gauntlet...

Originally posted by 753
well, marvel death/oblivion certainly will someday. But right now I doubt either them or gaiman's death could really take him - it's a stalemate that lasts for an eternity until the universe finally ceases to be and then death/oblivion swallow all

DC death does say she stays until the last thing dies and then turns off the lights of the universe, but the fourth rank of the gauntles has oblivion and he outlast even that and takes her within himself once there is nothing left to die. there is no way they can win.

the seven friendless have entropy and his feat alone dwarves all the endless too

the endless are screwed, largely because only 3 of them represent anything important. seriously, what are desire, dream, delirium and despair gonna do here?

2 or 4.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
I'm pretty sure Dream is actually one of the most, if not THE most powerful Endless because in addition to the Dreaming doesn't he also govern reality to an extent?

To an extent, yes. They can all manifest their conceptual opposites to a certain extent, but just like destruction's creations were somewhat senteced to fail, their feats with their opposites are usually less than impressive. Dreaming's warp lacks any feats for a battle of this level. If I'm not mistaken death and destiny are the most powerfull ones, given their very natures and roles. The dreaming is dependant upon the existence of thinking and dreaming beings.

Destruction was supposed to be a big deal, the mass collapse that fuels stars and sustains life, but he was an underachiever. Seriously, he gave up his role in the cosmos because humans would develop nuclear weapons? that's just how petty the frame of their concerns and activities were, it's the nature of gaiman's story, human beings and their existential conflicts were this big deal.

Eternity and infinity are what their names say, oblivion is primordial nothingess from which everything came and will return to, you can take it from there

Originally posted by cdtm
Come to think of it, there's a lot of this in comics..

The Antigod/Decreator in Morrison's Doom Patrol was supposed to have been made when The Presence said "Let there be light", and cast it's first shadow. But that kind of steps on the heels of The Great Evil Breast, a.k.a. The Original Darkness..

And the whole Mandrakk and Over-Monitor thing has it's own set of headaches... Does it exist within the larger scope of The Presence's creation? Or, is The Presence itself just a part of this larger organism?... Do the 5d imps also exist as bacteria within it? And don't even bring in Vertigo, where we actually see outside of DC's creation... And the same thing applies to Mandrakk and The Endless. If the Over-Monitor is just an aspect of DC creation, than that means The Endless have dominion over it.

Kind of hard to say whether The Endless get past Mandrakk or not without knowing it's relationship to the hierarchy of DC's creation.

But I'm pretty sure Lucifer could stop them. Death herself was afraid of Lucifer on his death bed, and Michael (Roughly Lucifers equal) pushed around Destiny in his own realm, so Lucifer should be above even the combined group.

Well Death wasn't that much afraid of Lucifer, it was more she knew how to handle him in her realm. Michael never pushed Destiny around either so I don't know where you got that. Zero Hour was a side effect of Dreams battle, if that is a side effect then everyone should understand why they don't interfere much, they are just that powerful. The list is still messed up and they would destroy nearly everyone on it (except maybe Lucifer or Mandrakk) 😮‍💨

4 should be lower imo

Originally posted by kevdude
Well Death wasn't that much afraid of Lucifer, it was more she knew how to handle him in her realm. Michael never pushed Destiny around either so I don't know where you got that. Zero Hour was a side effect of Dreams battle, if that is a side effect then everyone should understand why they don't interfere much, they are just that powerful. The list is still messed up and they would destroy nearly everyone on it (except maybe Lucifer or Mandrakk) 😮‍💨

With regards to Michael and Destiny, I'm referring to when Michael and Lucifer were in D's realm, and Michael snatched the book out of his hands. Plus, Destiny was basically just taking Michaels disrespect.

Originally posted by cdtm
With regards to Michael and Destiny, I'm referring to when Michael and Lucifer were in D's realm, and Michael snatched the book out of his hands. Plus, Destiny was basically just taking Michaels disrespect.

I would agree he was disrespectful (mainly cause of the events happening) but no time did Michael take Destiny's book, he said he would but Destiny stopped it from happening.

Originally posted by cdtm
With regards to Michael and Destiny, I'm referring to when Michael and Lucifer were in D's realm, and Michael snatched the book out of his hands. Plus, Destiny was basically just taking Michaels disrespect.

Destiny is not exactly an 'active' character. He's doomed to do what he is fated to do. Lucifer regards him as the embodiment of predestination. If he let Michael disrespect him and Lucifer burn the pages, it's because it was going to happen.

Originally posted by Johnny Sorrow
Destiny is not exactly an 'active' character. He's doomed to do what he is fated to do. Lucifer regards him as the embodiment of predestination. If he let Michael disrespect him and Lucifer burn the pages, it's because it was going to happen.

so there's no free will in their universe?

Originally posted by 753
so there's no free will in their universe?

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Not if there's an Omniscient being there isn't. Destiny like Doctor Manhattan (but in an even larger way) is a puppet who can see (and records) the strings.

but wasnt lucifer's thing all about taking control of his own destiny? did he acknowledge there is no free will?

Originally posted by 753
but wasnt lucifer's thing all about taking control of his own destiny? did he acknowledge there is no free will?