Originally posted by Blanket
Why would he be fighting in human form?And why could she BFR him before he simply looks at her and freezes her?
Hell, you haven't even proven she could BFR him. A negative is always true unless a positive is proven afterall.
I did prove that she can bfr him. She has created wind vortexes, vacuums, and carried people, air, moisture, etc. to space.
Iceman can't freeze her before she blows him away into a wind vortex. He hasn't proven to be that fast.
Originally posted by pinksushi1
At absolute zero, there is no motion. Therefore, that is impossible.And to HA18: Re-read what I said. I said, "near absolute zero."
🙄 🙄
I know what absolute zero is. I also know that comic book science is not real world science. In addition, I know that Iceman has reached absolute zero.
Originally posted by Blair Wind
I know what absolute zero is. I also know that comic book science is not real world science. In addition, I know that Iceman has reached absolute zero.
Hell deep space can be a couple of degrees above absolute zero. Anyone who can survive that is immune to being frozen by Iceman.
Originally posted by psycho gundam
why don't you challenge blair to a battlezone
No need to. I believe Iceman will win a majority against Storm (assuming storm is not immune to all temp extremes above 3k and below burning temps).
My point is that she can win, not will win. This is not a stomp by no means.
But Blair either purposely lied about Iceman achieving absolute zero (implied under his own power) or he misread the issue where it was achieved by assistance.
Originally posted by Blair Wind
Iceman has reached absolute zero before.
No where in that sentence did I lie. If you believed it to be a lie, or misrepresentation, that is on you. I'll also be posting two large posts that I just copied and pasted from another Iceman debate I had. It will include the feat you are questioning plus others. I'm sure you've seen it before, but I figure some others havent.
Part 1: Explanation of Iceman's Powers
Fine. Im going to first explain the way I view Iceman's powers, then show scans that support my case. First and foremost, I want to say that I do believe Iceman has a special connection with water. He can control it in all its various physical states. It is not JUST a by-product of his power to control molecular motion. Otherwise, why would his body be composed of water/ice/water vapor depending on the situation? However, his powers also do affect molecular motion, and by extesion thermal control. Its a very fine line, but let me explain.
First, let us look at his power. People say "Ooh! He makes ice." Or now, "Ooh, he turns himself into ice!." But let's step back. Basic physics says that there's no such thing as "cold", as a quantative energy form. Only degrees of heat. "Cold" is a relative term, requiring a difference between the observed target and the temperature of the observer. Example: I'm standing in my office, at a nice 73 degrees. The cabbie outside is standing on the street, shivering in 40 degrees. To me, he is cold. Whereas if I were buried in snow at around 20 degrees, I'd consider him pretty warm.
Right then, we've established that there's no such energy form as "cold". So, Bobby doesn't generate cold to form his ice, and he doesn't generate the moisture himself (imagine how quickly he'd be dehydrated, although he HAS on occasion, when needed, done just that). Therefore, he forms his ice structures from the ambient moisture in the environment around him. To do this, he causes the moisture to freeze
But how? We know he doesn't "project cold", so then he must absorb or dissipate the heat. By the laws of thermodynamics, energy is constant, it cannot be created or destroyed. However, let's go to another scientific principle. Heat is a measurement of the internal kinetic energy of an object. The more those atoms and molecules are buzzing around, the hotter it is.
What Bobby Drake does, as I see it, is project a field that inhibits the motion of those particles (herein referred to as Brownian Motion) thus dropping the temperature and freezing the moisture.
However, the amount of water vapor in any given area is not consistent with the large stunts Bobby regularly pulls off (re: ice slides, ice walls, etc). If he were to coalesce that much water vapor in one place and freeze it, the humidity all along the Eastern Seaboard would drop dramatically, we'd have wildcat lightning storms all over the place, cats and dogs living together, it would be anarchy, you see my point.
So that extra frozen mass has to come from somewhere. Remember that water vapor isn't the only thing in the air. You have a mixture of all sorts of gases. One of the most prominent of these is carbon dioxide. Compared to the other prominent gases in our atmosphere (nitrogen, the most common, and oxygen), carbon dioxide has a relatively high temperature (although still incredibly low) at which it becomes solid. It is my theory that the most part of Bobby's ice structures are composed of frozen carbon dioxide, or "dry ice". This would also explain why Manhattan isn't flooded every time his ice slides melt, since most of it sublimes back into gaseous carbon dioxide.
This is NOT to say that he cannot simply control (usually shown as freezing) the moisture, because in several specific cases, he HAS simply frozen the moisture. Its a game of control, because he can control hydrogen/oxygen, but he can do more than JUST that.
Moving on, what Bobby does is inhibit the Brownian Motion of objects. He can do this so quickly that there is no expansion of the target's water content, as was seen when he flash-froze Legion completely. Had he merely frozen all the moisture in Legion's body, well... put an unopened can of soda in the freezer sometime. Wait a few days. Watch the results. Legion would be a messy red chunk when he thawed.
Bobby is an incredibly powerful cryokinetic. But that's not the only extent to his powers. Since Mikhail's fiddling, he can transform his entire body into a water-based organism. In his form of homogenous ice, his thought processes go on, even though water is a MUCH less efficient conductor than neurons in the human brain. Basically, Bobby converts all the molecules of his body into water, and freezes and molds it as he moves. He has the capability to assume a completely liquid form (as Emma Frost did when in control of his body, and as he has done various times as well) as well as the potential ability to 'teleport' by zapping his consciousness through water vapor in the atmosphere, reforming at his desired location. In AOA, this was referred to as "moisture inversion". And through all this, he retains the ability to resume human form.
So what did we come to? Bobby has a special connection and affinity for water in all its forms. I will not deny that. However, he can control it through various ways to produce the same results. He can simply control the water, or stop the motion of its molecules.
Part 2: Scans and Feats
Now, you may say, he can only stop the molecular motion of water based things. There are various instances where he does more than just that, and I will highlight a few of them here.
Absolute Zero
In this case Torch's wife is trapped and Iceman is helping save her. Torch is about to melt the trigger, but Iceman stops him after he noticed that theres a sensor that would detonate if the trigger is melted or removed. Iceman decides to freeze the trigger to absolute zero to stop it. He mentions that he needs to freeze it to where all molecular motion stops. Although he did get help from Torch by absorbing the ambient heat, that was only to make the temp drop happen faster. No doubts Iceman could have done it alone. It just probably would have took longer.
http://img247.imageshack.us/img247/1076/mcp7432sa1.jpg
http://img157.imageshack.us/i/mcp7433el4.jpg/
Now, if he had just froze the water surrounding the device, well, the core of the bomb would still be able to detonate, and they would have all gone kabloom. However, due to the assist in that scan, let us look at other examples.
"Not everything on it Bobby, everything it IS!"
Here, per the dialog, Robert is told to not only freeze the whole Celestial ship, but everything it IS. I feel confident in stating that this meant not only the surface area around the the ship (and the insides), but rather, the very molecules that make up the ship. I say this based not only on the dialog, but rather that Bobby literally froze the programming that was infecting Prosh. The signal was frozen. He even went on to unfreeze portions of the ship without allowing the signal to go through to other areas. According to Creshosk:
"[To freeze the signal] you'd have to be freezing electricity or electromagnetic data itself... so either electrons or even smaller than that photons. At which point itd be possible for you to freeze anything in the electromagnetic radiation spectrum, radio waves, light... uv or x-rays, gamma rays."
For context, Prosh has been trying to fight his programming, but is no longer able to do so:
http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/3083/xmenforever5p17.jpg
The feat itself:
http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/4113/xmenforever5p19.jpg
http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/9195/xmenforever5p20.jpg
http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/6632/xmenforever5p21.jpg
http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/1770/xmenforever5p227kd.jpg
The effect on Prosh:
http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/3760/xmenforever6p13.jpg
Stranger
Now, Stranger is a cosmic threat. On the level of power that holds being like the Silver Surfer and above. He has a physical body because he chooses to do so, not because he really needs one. He can control molecules like I control legos.
Even Jean says they are not powerful enough to defeat him:
http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/3340/xmenforever6p02and03.jpg
And yet, for all his power, Iceman still manages to freeze him. And not only him, which should be impressive enough, but his energy beams. They became pure ice. Hydrogen and Oxygen contained as energy? I doubt it. He froze something that was not water based.
http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/9026/xmenforever6p26.jpg
And he stays with the Celestial ships, keeping the Stranger immobilized while the ship shrank into itself and "teleported" to another section of the universe (Iceman made it out by turning into water vapor and reforming right before the ship totally collapsed).
http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/1088/xmenforever6p29ew7.jpg
(Continued)
Fusion Core Explosion
Here, Bobby is shown freezing a fusion core explosion:
http://img409.imageshack.us/img409/5602/xmen199005tx5.jpg
http://img472.imageshack.us/img472/1859/xmen199006ou2.jpg
http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/3428/xmen199007.jpg
As you can see, there was an explosion that had already taken place while Mystique was smooching him. He then proceeds to put it on ice. For the layman, a fusion core explosion = a huge nuclear exoplosion. Heck the energy output of a fusion device would be well beyond that of a nuke. Pure surface area ice being applied to the ship would not be enough to cool it down. Without having molecular control how else could he frozen it?
Freezing Psi Energy
This is not very concrete, and I will admit it, but I have two scans that are pretty ambigious.
In the first, Iceman freezes (and you can see the shape of the frozen monster looking thingy) Psi Energy:
http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/494/xmen199003.jpg
In another, he freezes the Vanisher mid teleport. According to Psycho Gundam:
"vanisher's teleportation is psionic, and it only takes him a couple frames (high speed camera) for him to be gone.
marvel explained it pretty well back in the day when xavier was having issue with the guy and wanted to know how to beat him. he was filmed teleporting and in the mid fram of the set it showed him all fuzzy like an un-tuned television channel, basically he breaks himself down into psionic energy then transmits it to anywhere he wants to go.
Iceman freezing that process is kind of a big deal, as his mutant powers are largely psionic based "
http://img488.imageshack.us/img488/8627/17rj1.jpg
http://img488.imageshack.us/img488/1903/18lm4.jpg
Freezing a fire being from the inside out
Iceman faced off against someone who can draw energy from whats around him to fuel his fires. He "fed" on Iceman till there was nothing left apparently absorbing him.
It appears that Iceman was inside the opponents body, laying dormant until the time was right. Iceman must have been in his body for probably up to an hour. Could have been more, but hard to tell the full length of time that passed. Note: It appears Iceman killed him.
http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/8462/icemandormantiq9.png
Chemical Reactions
Furthering my case by talking about specifics, let us dive into Bobby progressing in terms of temperature control. This has nothing to do with Hydrogen or Oxygen as he is now able to control chemical reactions that involve heat change. This is how he is able to block Sunfires, and by extension Cannonballs, powers:
http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/2568/xmen2020011ef3.jpg
Part Three: Vs Storm?
I honestly believe Storm does not have the versatility it takes to take down Bobby. He has proven time again that you cannot simply blast him away, evaporate him, shoot him, explode him, or any other scenario you may come up with that involves a physical body. He simply reforms himself with no damage whatsoever, save if he is blown up as a human first. He is essentially a physic being that undetectably stores its consciousness in water molecules.
In addition, Storm does not have the durability necessary to handle Iceman. While she is a human with extreme powers, she is a human with human durability. Ice spikes, bullets, shards, ect ect are all capable of piercing her skin and killing her.
If you believe that Bobby can, with time, slow down Storms molecules to absolute zero then obviously he will win as Storm no longer has movement. If you decide that he cannot do so, then Bobby Drake still wins being that he is the non corporeal Iceman who can attack from any position with ice spikes, bullets, shards, ect ect.
Iceman wins.
*I did use various quotes I have saved in files, and cannot credit the original writers as I forgot who they were. However, most of it is re-written by me anyways. Just wanted to put that out there*
Originally posted by Blair Windvanisher's teleportation is psionic, and it only takes him a couple frames (high speed camera) for him to be gone.
In another, he freezes the Vanisher mid teleport. I dont know how he teleports, but he looks half there, and energy-like. If someone can come up with a good reason, let me know.
http://img488.imageshack.us/img488/8627/17rj1.jpg
http://img488.imageshack.us/img488/1903/18lm4.jpg
marvel explained it pretty well back in the day when xavier was having issue with the guy and wanted to know how to beat him. he was filmed teleporting and in the mid frame of the set it showed him all fuzzy like an un-tuned television channel, basically he breaks himself down into psionic energy then transmits it to anywhere he wants to go.
iceman freezing that process is kind of a big deal, as mutant powers are largely psionic based (activation of static powers)
Originally posted by Blair Wind
[b]Fusion Core Explosion
Here, Bobby is shown freezing a fusion core explosion:
http://img409.imageshack.us/img409/5602/xmen199005tx5.jpg
http://img472.imageshack.us/img472/1859/xmen199006ou2.jpg
http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/3428/xmen199007.jpgAs you can see, there was an explosion that had already taken place while Mystique was smooching him. He then proceeds to put it on ice. For the layman, a fusion core explosion = a huge nuclear exoplosion. Heck the energy output of a fusion device would be well beyond that of a nuke. Pure surface area ice being applied to the ship would not be enough to cool it down. Without having molecular control how else could he frozen it?
Freezing Psi Energy
This is not very concrete, and I will admit it, but I have two scans that are pretty ambigious.
In the first, Iceman freezes (and you can see the shape of the frozen monster looking thingy) Psi Energy:
http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/494/xmen199003.jpgIn another, he freezes the Vanisher mid teleport. According to Psycho Gundam:
"vanisher's teleportation is psionic, and it only takes him a couple frames (high speed camera) for him to be gone.
marvel explained it pretty well back in the day when xavier was having issue with the guy and wanted to know how to beat him. he was filmed teleporting and in the mid fram of the set it showed him all fuzzy like an un-tuned television channel, basically he breaks himself down into psionic energy then transmits it to anywhere he wants to go.
Iceman freezing that process is kind of a big deal, as his mutant powers are largely psionic based "
http://img488.imageshack.us/img488/8627/17rj1.jpg
http://img488.imageshack.us/img488/1903/18lm4.jpgFreezing a fire being from the inside out
Iceman faced off against someone who can draw energy from whats around him to fuel his fires. He "fed" on Iceman till there was nothing left apparently absorbing him.It appears that Iceman was inside the opponents body, laying dormant until the time was right. Iceman must have been in his body for probably up to an hour. Could have been more, but hard to tell the full length of time that passed. Note: It appears Iceman killed him.
http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/8462/icemandormantiq9.png
Chemical Reactions
Furthering my case by talking about specifics, let us dive into Bobby progressing in terms of temperature control. This has nothing to do with Hydrogen or Oxygen as he is now able to control chemical reactions that involve heat change. This is how he is able to block Sunfires, and by extension Cannonballs, powers:http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/2568/xmen2020011ef3.jpg
Part Three: Vs Storm?
I honestly believe Storm does not have the versatility it takes to take down Bobby. He has proven time again that you cannot simply blast him away, evaporate him, shoot him, explode him, or any other scenario you may come up with that involves a physical body. He simply reforms himself with no damage whatsoever, save if he is blown up as a human first. He is essentially a physic being that undetectably stores its consciousness in water molecules.
In addition, Storm does not have the durability necessary to handle Iceman. While she is a human with extreme powers, she is a human with human durability. Ice spikes, bullets, shards, ect ect are all capable of piercing her skin and killing her.
If you believe that Bobby can, with time, slow down Storms molecules to absolute zero then obviously he will win as Storm no longer has movement. If you decide that he cannot do so, then Bobby Drake still wins being that he is the non corporeal Iceman who can attack from any position with ice spikes, bullets, shards, ect ect.
Iceman wins.
*I did use various quotes I have saved in files, and cannot credit the original writers as I forgot who they were. However, most of it is re-written by me anyways. Just wanted to put that out there* [/B]
Good stuff. Some of the scans aren't working. I agree Iceman wins.
But a few issues need to be pointed out.
First, science arguing is incompatible with things that are impossible. Don't get me wrong. I'm am willing to except that absolute zero can be achieved in comics and other stuff too but can't accept it if real science is going to be used (we would get contradictions). With that said, what if it takes a certain level of power, will, or what have you to reach absolute zero for Bobby. For example, according to the special theory of relativity if one is going 99.9999999999999999999% the speed of light then it would take an astronomical amount of force just to go 1mph faster.
This is too say that it is possible for Bobby to have a limit on how low of temp he can achieve and any lower takes more power than he can muster (he even said on panel that on his good days he can reach a few degrees above absolute zero).
Second, writers don't really have full understanding of the science of the feats they are creating. For example, in the movie Hulk, Hulk got his size and strength from the ambient energy in the air. But there isn't enough energy in the air to create that much mass and strength. Hell, if a penny was converted to energy it would be a small nuclear bomb. That means it would take enough energy of more than thousands of nuclear bombs just to create 100lb being. Hulk was over 1000lbs though and had strength to jump miles away. It is clear that from writer's intentions that Bobby is only meant to affect moisture in the air. And that he freezes things indirectly by affecting the moisture.
Third, I've never seen Bobby instantly just vaporize and be anywhere at once. Nor have I seen him able to do anything but reform while in vapor state (no ice spikes, etc.).
Fourth, some beings have resistance to their molecules being slowed down, stopped, or even separated. That means Iceman would just be affecting non responsive molecules, but molecules that are fighting back (or resisting change). This is like trying to slow down a little girl vs. a huge football player. Iceman hasn't proven to have infinite control over molecules. Thus it would be harder or impossible for him to affect beings with decent resistance of their molecules being tampered with (resistance to being slowed down, transmuted, destroyed, separated, etc.). I honestly can't see Iceman being able to freeze current Thor, Hercules, or even Hulk. Maybe I'm wrong though but I just don't see it. Storm in not as resistance as those guys but she does have resistance of some sort.
Lastly, someone told me the rules have changed on this forum (not sure though as I didn't look it up). They said that for a character to be able to perform a feat (or power) not included in their normal power set in a forum fight then the character must have done it at least 3 times in comics already (or was it 2 times?). This may not refer to Bobby but I was just pointing that out.
Great stuff though. Hope we see more great feats from Iceman in the future.
