Mystic Gohan vs. SSJ4 Goku

Originally posted by yungz22
i wast serious about that part but it wasnt canon because toritama didnt write it

Originally posted by Galan007
In the manga, SSJ3 Goku essentially told Piccolo that even if he would have continued powering up to his max, he didn't think he could have beaten fat Buu.

http://www.mangafox.com/manga/dragon_ball/v42/c007/11.html

Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
Yeah, but it was later revealed that Goku lied to Piccolo when he said that, because here, he admits he could have beaten fat Buu while at SSJ3, but didn't do so because he wanted the boys to have their own chance at saving the world (I know, stupid reason to hold back)...

http://www.mangafox.com/manga/dragon_ball/v42/c007/11.html

Uh...yeah.

I was going to post that. But you beat me to it. 😆

Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
Eh, I figured as much. 😛

Yeah, but it was later revealed that Goku lied to Piccolo when he said that, because here, he admits he could have beaten fat Buu while at SSJ3, but didn't do so because he wanted the boys to have their own chance at saving the world (I know, stupid reason to hold back)...

http://www.mangafox.com/manga/dragon_ball/v42/c007/11.html

These two separate displays of power certainly depict Mystic Gohan as SSJ3 Goku's superior in nearly all areas (and by quite a wide margin to boot.) That is/was my only point.

Originally posted by Galan007
Cool. However, even IF Goku could have beaten fat Buu it would have almost certainly been a hard-earned and power-taxing battle for him. Mystic Gohan on the other hand, was owning a far more powerful version of Buu with little to no difficulty.

These two separate displays of power certainly depict Mystic Gohan as SSJ3 Goku's superior in nearly all areas (and by quite a wide margin to boot.) That is/was my only point.

Well, Vegeta does say the Goku is the only one that can fight buu, in the showdown:

http://www.mangafox.com/manga/dragon_ball/v42/c008/8.html

Also, there's not way to make a logical comparison with the Manga as I don't believe Goku in SSJ3 fought that superbuu version. However, he did in the anime.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Well, Vegeta does say the Goku is the only one that can fight buu, in the showdown:

http://www.mangafox.com/manga/dragon_ball/v42/c008/8.html

Also, there's not way to make a logical comparison with the Manga as I don't believe Goku in SSJ3 fought that superbuu version. However, he did in the anime.

1.) At that point in the story, Kid Buu had already destroyed earth and everyone on it. Only Goku, Vegeta, Satan, fat Buu, and the Kais remained. So naturally Goku was the only one left who could fight Buu.

2.) Kid Buu was among the least impressive versions of Buu (power wise) because he did not have any additional powers coupled with his own. In fact, evil Buu owned fat Buu much easier and swifter than kid Buu owned fat Buu. The way I see it..

Mystic Gohan >> Super Buu > Evil Buu =/> Kid Buu = SSJ3 Goku > Fat Buu. That seems to be the most logical equation based on how things played out.

3.) In the final battle, SSJ3 Goku wasn't overly impressive anyway. Heck when he tried powering up later on in the fight he was unable to because it was far too taxing on his living body. Yet another reason why SSJ3 is leaps and bounds the most inefficient SSJ form there is.

Originally posted by Galan007
A few things..

1.) At that point in the story, Kid Buu had already destroyed earth and everyone on it. Only Goku, Vegeta, Satan, fat Buu, and the Kais remained. So naturally Goku was the only one left who could fight Buu.

If that actually had bearing on what Vegeta thought, then Vegeta would have said Gohan: keep in mind, it was Vegeta's idea to bring all of the good people back on Earth. If Vegeta thought Gohan had a chance, he would have had them bring back Gohan and transported him there.

Originally posted by Galan007
2.) Kid Buu was among the least impressive versions of Buu (power wise) because he did not have any additional powers coupled with his own. In fact, evil Buu owned fat Buu much easier and swifter than kid Buu owned fat Buu. The way I see it..

Evil Buu also had an endless source of energy: something the other Buus did not have. Kid Buu was stated to be the deadliest version for a reason.

Originally posted by Galan007
Mystic Gohan >> Super Buu > Evil Buu =/> Kid Buu = SSJ3 Goku > Fat Buu. That seems to be the most logical equation based on how things played out.

Oops. My bad. I didn't mean "super buu". I meant Super Buu with Gotenks and Piccolo absorbed.

In the anime, Goku does just a good if not better than Mystic Gohan against that version of Super Buu.

Originally posted by Galan007
3.) In the final battle, SSJ3 Goku wasn't overly impressive anyway. Heck when he tried powering up later on in the fight he was unable to because it was far too taxing on his living body. Yet another reason why SSJ3 is leaps and bounds the most inefficient SSJ form there is.

It is. It's super inefficient. It wasn't perfected. With a tad bit of training, he should have been able to bring it up to snuff.

Originally posted by dadudemon
If that actually had bearing on what Vegeta thought, then Vegeta would have said Gohan: keep in mind, it was Vegeta's idea to bring all of the good people back on Earth. If Vegeta thought Gohan had a chance, he would have had them bring back Gohan and transported him there.

Evil Buu also had an endless source of energy: something the other Buus did not have. Kid Buu was stated to be the deadliest version for a reason.

In the anime, Goku does just a good if not better than Mystic Gohan against that version of Super Buu.

2.) Yet evil Buu was still < super Buu who was < Mystic Gohan. Furthermore, I think the reasoning behind calling kid Buu the deadliest version of Buu was more in regard to his overall mindset (ie. his sole purpose was to destroy everyone/thing without care.)

3.) Hmm, I don't remember SSJ3 Goku fighting super Buu in the anime. I know they didn't fight in the manga, though.

Originally posted by Galan007
1.) You're thinking of it too much from a forum/versus standpoint.

No I'm not. That's very simple logic: throw in your biggest chance for success.

Originally posted by Galan007
2.) Yet evil Buu was still < super Buu who was < Mystic Gohan. Furthermore, I think the reasoning behind calling kid Buu the deadliest version of Buu was more in regard to his overall mindset (ie. his sole purpose was to destroy everyone/thing without care.)

Super Buu fused, however is >>>> Mystic Gohan.

And Kid Buu was called the deadliest because he never tired and was the most evil.

Originally posted by Galan007
3.) Hmm, I don't remember SSJ3 Goku fighting super Buu in the anime. I know they didn't fight in the manga, though.

He did fight in the anime: he fought the fused Buu (Piccolo and Gotenks) that kicked Mystic Gohan's ass.

Originally posted by dadudemon
No I'm not. That's very simple logic: throw in your biggest chance for success.

And Kid Buu was called the deadliest because he never tired and was the most evil.

He did fight in the anime: he fought the fused Buu (Piccolo and Gotenks) that kicked Mystic Gohan's ass.

The most evil version, yes. The most powerful version, no.

Yeah I knew which version of Buu you meant - just didn't remember SSJ3 Goku having fought him in the anime, is all.

Originally posted by dadudemon
If that actually had bearing on what Vegeta thought, then Vegeta would have said Gohan: keep in mind, it was Vegeta's idea to bring all of the good people back on Earth. If Vegeta thought Gohan had a chance, he would have had them bring back Gohan and transported him there.

Evil Buu also had an endless source of energy: something the other Buus did not have. Kid Buu was stated to be the deadliest version for a reason.

Oops. My bad. I didn't mean "super buu". I meant Super Buu with Gotenks and Piccolo absorbed.

In the anime, Goku does just a good if not better than Mystic Gohan against that version of Super Buu.

It is. It's super inefficient. It wasn't perfected. With a tad bit of training, he should have been able to bring it up to snuff.

Originally posted by Galan007
Again, that's a great view from a forum standpoint -- but the writer clearly wanted Goku, and Goku alone, to shine. That's why he didn't have Vegeta utilize any *more* logical wishes.

That doesn't change what I said, though. You also can't change what was said and Vegeta clearly said Goku was the best chance they had. Anything stated that contradicts that is wrong in both a forum and to canon.

Originally posted by Galan007
The most evil version, yes. The most powerful version, no.

The most evil version, yes. The most deadly version, yes. The fastest or the physically strongest version? Probably not. The version that could destroy all other versions that came after? Yes.

Originally posted by Galan007
Yeah I knew which version of Buu you meant - just didn't remember SSJ3 Goku having fought him in the anime, is all.

Watch it again. It's the point where Goku comes back to merge with Gohan.

Originally posted by yungz22
vegetas plan was to let the eareth fend for itself....even goku thought when vegeta said he had an idea he thought vegeta was going to say bring gohan he even stated this...but vegeta said no lets lthe earth decide itz own fate

That was part of the plan, not THE plan. The plan was to create a big Spirit Bomb to defeat Buu.

And Goku didn't think Vegeta was going to specifically bring Gohan back to defeat Buu. Nice try. 😆

Originally posted by dadudemon
That doesn't change what I said, though. You also can't change what was said and Vegeta clearly said Goku was the best chance they had. Anything stated that contradicts that is wrong in both a forum and to canon.

The most evil version, yes. The most deadly version, yes. The fastest or the physically strongest version? Probably not. The version that could destroy all other versions that came after? Yes.

Watch it again. It's the point where Goku comes back to merge with Gohan.

That was part of the plan, not THE plan. The plan was to create a big Spirit Bomb to defeat Buu.

And Goku didn't think Vegeta was going to specifically bring Gohan back to defeat Buu. Nice try. 😆

how else is the earth gonna fend other than the spirit bomb..... ok goku though vegeta wanted to bring the gohan and gotenks back to help fight buu.... but gohan is stronger than gotenks which means goku thought gohan could beat him

heres the link to the scan

so its not like what i said was far fetched

http://www.mangafox.com/manga/dragon_ball/v42/c012/7.html

Originally posted by yungz22
how else is the earth gonna fend other than the spirit bomb..... ok goku though vegeta wanted to bring the gohan and gotenks back to help fight buu.... but gohan is stronger than gotenks which means goku thought gohan could beat him

Not only are you doing what is called "back-peddling", but this is still incorrect.

Goku thought it was to HELP Vegeta and Goku defeat Buu, not for Gohan to defeat Buu. On top of that, it was also Gotenks help that Goku referred to.

Originally posted by yungz22
heres the link to the scan

so its not like what i said was far fetched

http://www.mangafox.com/manga/dragon_ball/v42/c012/7.html

"...Gohan and Gotenks so they could help us fight Buu."

It wasn't just Gohan. It was also gotenks.

And it wasn't for Gohan to defeat Buu, it was for them all to work together to defeat Buu.

Also, that quote does NOT mean this:

"even goku thought when vegeta said he had an idea he thought vegeta was going to say bring gohan he even stated this"

In other words, the stretch/logic you tried to pull was far-fetched and actually wrong, now that I think about it.

Question: Isn't Anime Goku weaker than Manga Goku at the end of DBZ?

Originally posted by dadudemon
Not only are you doing what is called "back-peddling", but this is still incorrect.

Goku thought it was to HELP Vegeta and Goku defeat Buu, not for Gohan to defeat Buu. On top of that, it was also Gotenks help that Goku referred to.

"...Gohan and Gotenks so they could help us fight Buu."

It wasn't just Gohan. It was also gotenks.

And it wasn't for Gohan to defeat Buu, it was for them all to work together to defeat Buu.

Also, that quote does NOT mean this:

"even goku thought when vegeta said he had an idea he thought vegeta was going to say bring gohan he even stated this"

In other words, the stretch/logic you tried to pull was far-fetched and actually wrong, now that I think about it.

ok in canon when have you ever seen not fight one on one and it worked. they always fight 1 on 1. going by dbz rules theh strongest one gohan would have been the one to kill kid buu. even the Dbz daizennsuhu 2 or however you spell it stated that gohan is the strongest nonfused character in dbz

Originally posted by Bentley
Question: Isn't Anime Goku weaker than Manga Goku at the end of DBZ?

Originally posted by Kento
Don't see how. Gokou in the anime fought Gotenks Buu, and fought Kid Buu at ssj or it might have been ssj2. Meanwhile Manga Gokou was about to fight Gotenks Buu but was scared, and went ssj3 as soon as Kid Buu appeared on Kaioshin's world.

That could be just Buu being weaker though.

I remember a filler showing were Goku could not move carrying a few tons during his training in the world of the dead.

Originally posted by Bentley
That could be just Buu being weaker though.

I remember a filler showing were Goku could not move carrying a few tons during his training in the world of the dead.

Originally posted by Galan007
In the manga, SSJ3 Goku essentially told Piccolo that even if he would have continued powering up to his max, he didn't think he could have beaten fat Buu. Other side of the coin, Mystic Gohan made Super Buu (who was a good deal more powerful than fat Buu) look like a weak feeb.

So in my opinion, Mystic Gohan's power was well beyond that of SSJ3 Goku.

Well fat buu had more power to pull on and his power had no limit. When he was seperated and actually ate up by the evil buu, I'm pretty sure he was weakened since he lost a part of himself and his power.

The buu that Goku fought, I honestly think he was the strongest of all the buus. His power level was off the chart and had no ending. When all of that seperating crap happened, I think it took its toll on his powerlevel.

Fat buu was the strongest if you ask me.