Superman Vs Loki

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I don't recall a single time Kal has instantly superspeed blitzed a magic-using opponent he's facing off against. I'd be open to examples. So, because Superman would know he would LOSE every other way, he instantly superspeed blitzes? I thought you were of the persuasion that magic =/= Superman losing?

in a normal comic setting, magic doesn't equate to insta-win, however, in THIS setting, with loki also bloodlusted, it could. more important, in this setting, with what could be lost (in kal's mind), why would he run the risk of NOT using speed? in all seriousness, i don't see why you WOULDN'T find it reasonable to think he'd blitz in this situation against a magic user of loki's level. this is nothing like the GB of thor. blitzes are something clark does a lot. strength and speed are his greatest assets. by saying you don't think he'd blitz, it's almost like you're trying to handicap him.

Cmon... Superman isn't in a state of superspeed at all times. Which conveniently brings us right to Lois. If he did operate at superspeed states all the time, you'd think Superman would have gotten her clear of Clayface's bomb as soon it started detonating in Final Crisis?

you'd think, but then again flash is hit all the time in books as well . . .

In any case, I don't think magic =/= Superman losing. And Superman's thought the same, because I don't recall him ever resorting to instant superspeed blitz + staying in superspeed intangible state against any of his magic-wielding foes.

i never said he'd be intangible . . . i said that if the battle progressed that would be an option he COULD use, or he could try and find loki's phased frequency as a potential counter. or dodge and blast. a prolonged battle though heavily favors loki.

I buy Loki's insta-phase argument as much as I buy the Superman insta-omgwtfbbq superspeed blitz argument.

but why the OMGWTFBBQ? it's just a blitz. nothing overly special about it at all. 😬

They're both shallow and rooted in the same reductionist powerset argument. But I've never been above playing fire with fire.

nah. because for loki there really isn't anything BUT that type of argument to counter kal's speed. loki needs to go to extremes that stretch credulity like insta-phase or think at speeds>c to allow him to answer or survive something supes does, if not all the time, with enough frequency to make it less than out of the ordinary. how is saying he blitzes, shallow if he exhibits the ability so often? the weight of evidence is in kal's corner.

Loki may not believe it necessary to go intangible, but Superman would believe it necessary to go insta omgwtfbbq superspeed blitz?

certainly more than the opposite. kal hates supernatural. he would know loki was a magic user AND a god. he's a genius. not hard for him to figure that loki's magic would be pretty powerful . . . loki IS arrogant, and would likely feel a brick like superman wouldn't be much of a threat. i don't think that assessment unreasonable.

Even though Superman hasn't against any magical foes that I am aware of, or that you have mentioned?

not sure why you keep specifying magic foes. how would that impact his ability to blitz?

You're so totally trolling the hell out of that thread, aren't you? crackers

😖hifty:

I call you other things behind your back... uhuh [/B]

keep your terms of endearment to yourself, sicko. 😐

Originally posted by Philosophía
I'm not sure what exactly your position is here, probably because you're trying to change it. Your initial statement was that Superman isn't in a state of superspeed, and used as an example him not being fast enough to save Lois from the explosion, supposdley due to him not having his superspeed 'activated', otherwise the argument would have been irrelevant. I offered direct counter-examples, where Superman eventough didn't have his superspeed 'activated', as in he didn't even know what was about to take place and thus turn his speed 'on' (bullet being fired, for example) until after he hears it, he still reacts to and outraces the bullet. Then I pointed out that the example you provided is in the same vein as ones used on the forum to demean Superman, like "he is hit by Konvikt, he will be hit by Hulk" when those are nothing more than plot-driven instances, like the aforementioned one.

Now, as you may have noticed, I haven't even mentioned Loki in my post, simply because I don't want to participate in this discussion -- and why I specifically adressed the misconception of Superman's abilities in your post and nothing else.

I'm confused though... those plot driven instances are a regular occurance for superman. Thus, pretty much every story Supes is in would be PIS and that just can't be the case. What is funnier is that when supes beats people he has no business beating on a forum setting... people use that to say... look supes has beaten __, ___, ..... even though there is clearly PIS and CIS going on there. Yet when he gets hit by a brick... it's PIS... Funny how that works.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I'm confused though... those plot driven instances are a regular occurance for superman. Thus, pretty much every story Supes is in would be PIS and that just can't be the case. What is funnier is that when supes beats people he has no business beating on a forum setting... people use that to say... look supes has beaten __, ___, ..... even though there is clearly PIS and CIS going on there. Yet when he gets hit by a brick... it's PIS... Funny how that works.

how do you explain flash being hit all the time?

Originally posted by Philosophía
I'm not sure what exactly your position is here, probably because you're trying to change it. Your initial statement was that Superman isn't in a state of superspeed, and used as an example him not being fast enough to save Lois from the explosion, supposdley due to him not having his superspeed 'activated', otherwise the argument would have been irrelevant. I offered direct counter-examples, where Superman eventough didn't have his superspeed 'activated', as in he didn't even know what was about to take place and thus turn his speed 'on' (bullet being fired, for example) until after he hears it, he still reacts to and outraces the bullet. Then I pointed out that the example you provided is in the same vein as ones used on the forum to demean Superman, like "he is hit by Konvikt, he will be hit by Hulk" when those are nothing more than plot-driven instances, like the aforementioned one.

Now, as you may have noticed, I haven't even mentioned Loki in my post, simply because I don't want to participate in this discussion -- and why I specifically adressed the misconception of Superman's abilities in your post and nothing else.

Originally posted by Philosophía
His stance is that he isn't in a state of superspeed at all times, and used the Final Crisis example to supposdley strengthen his point -- and I showed that's not the case, as he's been able to perceive, react and move to outrace things after they've been initiated, like the bullet example (I'll even post scans if necessary -- and there's more than one instance of him doing this). Which, funnily enough, nullifies even the second stance you assume he took.

Anyway, I'll continue this tomorrow, if there's anything left to say.

Originally posted by leonidas
how do you explain flash being hit all the time?

Superman =/= Flash. They aren't the same character first off. Second, how do you explain supes beating people he has no business beating to save the day? Those are okay but him getting hit by a brick isn't? Explain

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Superman =/= Flash. They aren't the same character first off. Second, how do you explain supes beating people he has no business beating to save the day? Those are okay but him getting hit by a brick isn't? Explain

Other than Darkseid would you name these people?

Originally posted by leonidas
in a normal comic setting, magic doesn't equate to insta-win, however, in THIS setting, with loki also bloodlusted, it could. more important, in this setting, with what could be lost (in kal's mind), why would he run the risk of NOT using speed? in all seriousness, i don't see why you WOULDN'T find it reasonable to think he'd blitz in this situation against a magic user of loki's level. this is nothing like the GB of thor. blitzes are something clark does a lot. strength and speed are his greatest assets. by saying you don't think he'd blitz, it's almost like you're trying to handicap him.

Originally posted by leonidas
you'd think, but then again flash is hit all the time in books as well . . .

i never said he'd be intangible . . . i said that if the battle progressed that would be an option he COULD use, or he could try and find loki's phased frequency as a potential counter. or dodge and blast. a prolonged battle though heavily favors loki.

but why the OMGWTFBBQ? it's just a blitz. nothing overly special about it at all.

I totally see Superman countering vibrating intangibility. I totally see Superman failing to counter/affect dimensional phasing and density phasing (both of which Loki's used).

Because the blitz you're contemplating would have to be so fast and so instantaneous, that Loki couldn't even insta-phase to begin with, so powerful, that Loki couldn't tank it, and so prolonged, that Loki would never recover after it's done. And obviously, it's the first one that I have the most problems with as unsupported and undemonstrated.

Originally posted by leonidas
nah. because for loki there really isn't anything BUT that type of argument to counter kal's speed. loki needs to go to extremes that stretch credulity like insta-phase or think at speeds>c to allow him to answer or survive something supes does, if not all the time, with enough frequency to make it less than out of the ordinary. how is saying he blitzes, shallow if he exhibits the ability so often? the weight of evidence is in kal's corner.

certainly more than the opposite. kal hates supernatural. he would know loki was a magic user AND a god. he's a genius. not hard for him to figure that loki's magic would be pretty powerful . . . loki IS arrogant, and would likely feel a brick like superman wouldn't be much of a threat. i don't think that assessment unreasonable.

not sure why you keep specifying magic foes. how would that impact his ability to blitz?

It's not unreasonable. How that translates to Superman omgwtfbbq insta-blitzing Loki is where I see several levels of disjunction.

You're saying that it's Superman's awareness of Loki's powerful magic that would cause Kal-El to have no choice but to omgwtfbbq insta-blitz Loki. This is just one level of disjunction since I've never seen Superman react so panickedly in such a manner. You showing me where Superman does so on-panel would help resolve my disbelief.

Originally posted by leonidas
😖hifty:

keep your terms of endearment to yourself, sicko. 😐

Stop flirting with me, you're making me blush. crackers

Originally posted by Omega Vision
The only times I can think of where he had mega-PIS allowing him to beat superior characters is when he fought Darkseid in AN and in Superman/Batman. Otherwise he usually has some sort of external amp or plot device securing his victory.

Other than Darkseid would you name these people?

That is exactly my point.. he has a plethora of plot devices that help him beat people and yet those PIS situations aren't taken as such. That is just Supes using his intelligence to invent this or that… or it's because he is so dynamic he can become as strong as he wants to be.. or because of this amp or that amp. Yet he's given credit for beating these people he has no business beating. Yet, when he gets tagged by a brick… that is PIS… but not PIS when he beats people with an amp or an invention? People like COIE AM should've dealt with Supes and all the other heroes easily and with a gesture… same with Imperiex. Eradicator should tool supes to death… Despero should walk all over supes each and every time… People like Validus/Mantis/Grundy/DS should walk all over supes. Most times though… they start out strong like omfgggg we can't beat this bad guy… only to have Supes "real try" and save the day. The point is…. if you're going to count supes being hit by bricks as PIS.. then you would have to count a lot of supes victories as the same.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
[B]Superman =/= Flash.

precisely. the flash is FASTER, yet he gets hit all the time. how about explaining what i asked before running away and hiding from the question by ASKING another question.

Second, how do you explain supes beating people he has no business beating to save the day? Those are okay but him getting hit by a brick isn't? Explain

😂

first, if he DOES beat someone above him, and it's PIS, i'll be the first to say so. however, your list of characters who should 'walk all over him' is kind of funny. grundy and DS are portrayed so inconsistently that their actual levels of power are barely known and people BELOW superman have challenged and beaten them. validus? when has kal beaten him in the way you're suggesting? or mantis? kal has held his own for brief periods against despero, and his will power and mental defenses have been shown historically to be awesome, so why exactly wouldn't he be able to hold his own against despero for a while? where has he beaten despero in a straight 1on1 situation for that matter? i'm not even sure what point it is you're trying to make tbh.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
That is exactly my point.. he has a plethora of plot devices that help him beat people and yet those PIS situations aren't taken as such. That is just Supes using his intelligence to invent this or that… or it's because he is so dynamic he can become as strong as he wants to be.. or because of this amp or that amp. Yet he's given credit for beating these people he has no business beating. Yet, when he gets tagged by a brick… that is PIS… but not PIS when he beats people with an amp or an invention? People like COIE AM should've dealt with Supes and all the other heroes easily and with a gesture… same with Imperiex. Eradicator should tool supes to death… Despero should walk all over supes each and every time… People like Validus/Mantis/Grundy/DS should walk all over supes. Most times though… they start out strong like omfgggg we can't beat this bad guy… only to have Supes "real try" and save the day. The point is…. if you're going to count supes being hit by bricks as PIS.. then you would have to count a lot of supes victories as the same.

As for most of those cases you're inflating the degree of the PIS involved. Despero's power levels fluctuate wildly, that's why "VV Despero" is commonly used on the forum to denote his Uber showings and throw out his plethora of lesser showings.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Yet he's given credit for beating these people he has no business beating. Yet, when he gets tagged by a brick… that is PIS… but not PIS when he beats people with an amp or an invention?

you're talking in ridiculous generalities because you have nothing specific. who are 'these people' who 'give him credit' for beating people 'he has no business beating'? certainly not me. not phil or pr who know him better than most. so, who?

again, how do you explain flash getting hit all the time in his books?

Originally posted by leonidas
precisely. the flash is FASTER, yet he gets hit all the time. how about explaining what i asked before running away and hiding from the question by ASKING another question.

😂

first, if he DOES beat someone above him, and it's PIS, i'll be the first to say so. however, your list of characters who should 'walk all over him' is kind of funny. grundy and DS are portrayed so inconsistently that their actual levels of power are barely known and people BELOW superman have challenged and beaten them. validus? when has kal beaten him in the way you're suggesting? or mantis? kal has held his own for brief periods against despero, and his will power and mental defenses have been shown historically to be awesome, so why exactly wouldn't he be able to hold his own against despero for a while? where has he beaten despero in a straight 1on1 situation for that matter? i'm not even sure what point it is you're trying to make tbh.

I thought my point was rather clear really... If he has an amp to beat someone how is that not PIS? How he pulls an invention out of his ass to beat someone how is that any less PIS then him getting hit by a brick. Funny you bring up V&V Despero...Supes is the one who ended up putting him down.... yet according to you, he should only hold his own yet he did beat him. Explain to me how COIE AM or Imperiex didn't dismiss superman with the greatest of ease.... Plot device.. PIS.... These are the example I'm talking about. Grundy shoudn't walk all over superman... true his power levels have fluctuated... yet we're dealing with someone who is magical in nature... last I checked Supes doesn't do well with that and even worse back in the day... Plus he's stronger than Supes... yet he goes down to Supes... I'm not sure what exactly is unclear about what I'm saying. Supes is a walking PIS machine and this is the reason he gets many a victory against people tiers above him... yet you wanna talk about a brick hitting him as PIS and throw it out... If that is the rationale we should throw out many of supes victories.

Originally posted by leonidas
you're talking in ridiculous generalities because you have nothing specific. who are 'these people' who 'give him credit' for beating people 'he has no business beating'? certainly not me. not phil or pr who know him better than most. so, who?

again, how do you explain flash getting hit all the time in his books?

I explain that as yes it's partially PIS but when it happens so much one could argue it's because they take someone lightly... they enjoy the good fight... people get lucky... Yet it is kinda PIS so we don't disagree there but you have to take the good with the bad. If Supes is always suppose to save the day and thus he beats everyone in the end.. that is PIS... if we count those as wins for Supes.. then the PIS that works against him must also count. This isn't brain surgery here.

^ Grundy being made from magic doesn't mean his skin has some sort of durability canceling effect on Superman. If that were the case then Wonder Woman would be able to break his jaw with a light slap.

You vastly overestimate the effect magic has on Superman. Its not like Kryptonians are specifically weak to magic, they just don't have any more defense to it than would a normal human.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
[B]I thought my point was rather clear really... If he has an amp to beat someone how is that not PIS? How he pulls an invention out of his ass to beat someone how is that any less PIS then him getting hit by a brick. Funny you bring up V&V Despero...Supes is the one who ended up putting him down....

the rock of eternity FALLING on him put him down, AFTER a number of other heroes had already battled him.

yet according to you, he should only hold his own yet he did beat him.

so, tell me again when has superman in a 1on1 situation beaten despero?

Explain to me how COIE AM or Imperiex didn't dismiss superman with the greatest of ease....

how didn't coie AM beat ALL the heroes so easily? the hell are you talking about? why are you specifying supes? why didn't he beat flash so easily? why not supergirl? cap marvel? the whole lot of them?

Grundy shoudn't walk all over superman... true his power levels have fluctuated... yet we're dealing with someone who is magical in nature... last I checked Supes doesn't do well with that and even worse back in the day... Plus he's stronger than Supes...

says YOU. some versions may be stronger. and he doesn't throw magical 'punches' anymore than adam or ww do. that example is laughable. and when exactly DID supes take him out 1on1 anyway?

I'm not sure what exactly is unclear about what I'm saying. Supes is a walking PIS machine and this is the reason he gets many a victory against people tiers above him...

and yet you've failed to provide one concrete example of him conclusively beating someone above him via PIS. punching out DS could be viewed by some as PIS, but again, his levels fluctuate so much it's hard to tell with DS. so, what are all these other examples, and for the second time, who ARE all these people who refuse to label PIS as PIS?

yet you wanna talk about a brick hitting him as PIS and throw it out... If that is the rationale we should throw out many of supes victories.

😂

which victories again? and so how DO you rationalize the fact that he CAN move at near-flash levels, yet DOES get hit repeatedly by the hulk? it can be explained in the same way you explained the flash example. and in kal's case it is ON PANEL that he often holds back against foes.

your 'point' is meaningless in a forum situation anyway. rules say "powers to their fullest". so whatever point you're trying to make is moot by rule.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
It's not unreasonable. How that translates to Superman omgwtfbbq insta-blitzing Loki is where I see several levels of disjunction.

ok, 2 things: first, where was that scan you used to try and prove 'insta-phasing' again? i looked back but we've beaten this thread into submission and i couldn't find it!

secondly, who would you say was faster, thor or loki?

Stop flirting with me, you're making me blush. crackers [/B]

you're cute when you're flustered. 😍

Originally posted by leonidas
so, tell me again when has superman in a 1on1 situation beaten despero?

http://img293.imageshack.us/ifs/1323/img184/3/16116124rc1.jpg

Originally posted by batdude123
http://img293.imageshack.us/ifs/1323/img184/3/16116124rc1.jpg

Originally posted by batdude123
http://img293.imageshack.us/ifs/1323/img184/3/16116124rc1.jpg

Thought it was obvious enough that I didn't have to post the scan of it...

Only thing more obvious is your hate for Superman.