Superman Vs Loki

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Yes, by a wide margin.

we will whole-heartedly disagree on that point then.

I don't know what the top is, but absorbing Dormammu's powers and entrapping Death

context?

given knowledge of superman's powers, and lack of pis in the forum, explain why WOULDN'T he remain in a state of intangibility? he's turned intangible instantly, turned intangible for prolonged periods. he HAS the ability to remain in an intangible state, so, why wouldn't he turn intangible, then blast him with magic at his leisure? a serious question.

lol

sophistry. nice. but i asked you first.

Concerning your serious question, you haven't presented any proof that Superman has instantly and constantly remained in a superspeed state against his foes, much less against magical and/or godly ones.

that's because you're what you're asking for proof of is common knowledge. you need proof he can blitz? you need proof he's fast? you say loki's "instant" intangibility>kal's ability to blitz and we'll disagree, simple as. and what difference would it make to his speed if he fought 'a god'? he's fought PLENTY of them.

Loki's turned intangible instantly.

instantly? if you say so.

Also, presupposing Superman's first blow = Loki's defeat is absurd.

not at all. thor has stunned loki with a single blow. one blow at superspeed would at LEAST stun him and prevent him from casting any spells. from there a hundred others would ko him.

Loki's phased intangible instantly. Loki's perceived radio waves and electronic signals clearly enough to redirect them. He's physically dodged Mjolnir. I don't perceive instantaneous heat vision to be an insurmountable problem, whether you can prove Superman would do so or not. Loki has used area spells and omniblasts before. He's used blink teleportation and insta-binding and telepathy before.

yep. but "evidence" of loki's "superspeed" and his ability to react to superspeed in a combat situation are essentially non-existent compared to clark's.

in fact, there is ZERO evidence of his ability to combat a speedster because he's never battled one.

Your recollections of how Superman has fared against those characters' magicks is jaundiced, to say the least.

and i could say your own are predudiced as well, so meh.

Also, Loki's magic is far superior to any of those characters you mentioned.

that is highly questionable. adam and CM both are possessed of very high level magic.

As you recognize from regressing this match-up into a shallow reduction of powersets/abilities,

lol

of course, I'VE regressed this. i'm the one arguing for the near-brick. we're not playing chess here, in the event you've lost track of what we're talking about. clark is a very 'basic character'. how exactly have i reduced his powerset again? his MAIN powers are speed and strength. he would need to utilize both speed and strength to their fullest to win this. you want complicated, debate loki can take out ss.

barring Superman running away from the field of battle, Loki's intangibility offers him unlimited opportunity to attack him and completely negates any offense Superman could mount.

perhaps. i could bring up t-vo as a valid tactic i suppose since it has been used multiple times, but i don't really like t-vo. it likely has as much proof and credence behind it as loki's 'superspeed' reactions does though.

loki has never fought someone as fast as clark so for you to so readily decree his speed is something that loki could easily deal with . . . . well, that's your perogative, i just don't see how you could be so adamant in your stance.

Originally posted by leonidas
we will whole-heartedly disagree on that point then.

context?

lol sophistry. nice. but i asked you first.

Context: At the climax of the Avengers/Defenders War, Loki and Dormammu struggled for control over the Evil Eye after Dormammu reneged on his promise to restore Loki's sight. Eventually Dormammu's essence was absorbed into it and got blasted out at Loki. The story itself ends with Loki seemingly catatonic over it. Months later in Thor, it's revealed that Loki absorbed his power and started a campaign against Earth, kicking the crap out of Thor and Firelord, among others. Eventually, the power faded naturally. On Death's capture, he just literally captured Death and imprisoned her while messing around with Deadpool in a trap to lure Jake Olsen to her clutches. Details weren't really provided surrounding her original capture, although it's clear it wasn't by Death's permission.

Well, my genuine response is that its sophistry for you to bring it up in the first place. The reason I doubt your scenario is that I've never seen Superman instantly go into a superspeed state against his foes, much less against powerful magic foes like amped Arion. Why are we assuming any different here?

Originally posted by leonidas
that's because you're what you're asking for proof of is common knowledge. you need proof he can blitz? you need proof he's fast? you say loki's "instant" intangibility>kal's ability to blitz and we'll disagree, simple as. and what difference would it make to his speed if he fought 'a god'? he's fought PLENTY of them.

instantly? if you say so.

not at all. thor has stunned loki with a single blow. one blow at superspeed would at LEAST stun him and prevent him from casting any spells. from there a hundred others would ko him.

Instantly? I've proven so. crackers

Thor has also rained punches on him in a torrential beatdown and Loki's withstood it with a snarl. He's also immediately recovered from a square Stormbreaker shot upside the chin. That instance you're recalling is one fight amongst their battles where Thor briefly stunned him with "one of the most powerful blows the world's ever seen." Captain Marvel's two-shotted Superman before. Superman's one-shotted John Stewart before. I don't find it necessary to cite to such aberrations in vs. debates for the proposition that is the inevitable end-result of such fights unless they're consistent with characters' history. Such two or one-shots are decidely not consistent.

Originally posted by leonidas
yep. but "evidence" of loki's "superspeed" and his ability to react to superspeed in a combat situation are essentially non-existent compared to clark's.

in fact, there is ZERO evidence of his ability to combat a speedster because he's never battled one.

and i could say your own are predudiced as well, so meh. that is highly questionable. adam and CM both are possessed of very high level magic.

You don't consider a thrown Mjolnir to be speedy, your prerogative. biscuits

Superman has no impressive feats against magic. You've attempted to list several and they pale in comparison to the magic Loki can bring to the fight. Black Adam and Captain Marvel's lightning shots are impressive and comparable to Loki's regular magical blasts. Beyond that, they've got nothing else that compares to the litany of spells that Loki can produce.

Originally posted by leonidas
lol of course, I'VE regressed this. i'm the one arguing for the near-brick. we're not playing chess here, in the event you've lost track of what we're talking about. clark is a very 'basic character'. how exactly have i reduced his powerset again? his MAIN powers are speed and strength. he would need to utilize both speed and strength to their fullest to win this. you want complicated, debate loki can take out ss.

perhaps. i could bring up t-vo as a valid tactic i suppose since it has been used multiple times, but i don't really like t-vo. it likely has as much proof and credence behind it as loki's 'superspeed' reactions does though.

loki has never fought someone as fast as clark so for you to so readily decree his speed is something that loki could easily deal with . . . . well, that's your perogative, i just don't see how you could be so adamant in your stance.

No. Superman's T-Vo has as much credence as Loki summoning a dimensional vortex and being empowered by an entire dimension. 😬

And Superman instantly wtfomgbbq superspeed-blitzing with hundreds of blows at the start of the fight instantly has as much credence as Loki phasing instantaneously at the start of the fight. And that's where we can agree to disagree. And I've seen the latter; I've not even seen the former.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
[B]Agreed. uhuh

Context: At the climax of the Avengers/Defenders War, Loki and Dormammu struggled for control over the Evil Eye after Dormammu reneged on his promise to restore Loki's sight. Eventually Dormammu's essence was absorbed into it and got blasted out at Loki. The story itself ends with Loki seemingly catatonic over it. Months later in Thor, it's revealed that Loki absorbed his power and started a campaign against Earth, kicking the crap out of Thor and Firelord, among others. Eventually, the power faded naturally. On Death's capture, he just literally captured Death and imprisoned her while messing around with Deadpool in a trap to lure Jake Olsen to her clutches. Details weren't really provided surrounding her original capture, although it's clear it wasn't by Death's permission.

i'll check those things out. i have the arcs in question. one of these days i'll need to reread some of the books i have buried in the basement.

Well, my genuine response is that its sophistry for you to bring it up in the first place. The reason I doubt your scenario is that I've never seen Superman instantly go into a superspeed state against his foes, much less against powerful magic foes like amped Arion. Why are we assuming any different here?I know Superman can blitz and that he's fast. I'd like proof that he'd have any sort of predilection for instantly going into a superspeed state and stay there. Speedsters do that all the time. Superman? Not so much. It's about as shallow as suggesting that Thor immediately Godblast omniblasts in any fight against, say... someone of Kurse's stature due to the power differential. Let's face it. That's garbage.

Instantly? I've proven so. crackers

😂

if you say so. 😄

as regards the blitz and superspeed states--kal HAS remained in superspeed for prolonged periods. his races against the flash are easy and obvious examples, but of course flying interstellar distances also qualify. as far as instantaneous movement, i'm thinking of times where he bfr's people before anyone knows it's happened, i'm thinking of his outracing the omega effect from a standing position and leading it back to darkseid. there are times when he does use speed in fights and times he doesn't.

Thor has also rained punches on him in a torrential beatdown and Loki's withstood it with a snarl.

true, but kal could hit him a LOT more than thor could with his speed, and as he is being beaten he wouldn't be casting spells.

He's phased through Mjolnir throws. He's phased instantly on-panel. He's used magic in response to same at the speed of thought. Which is quantified by both companies as reaching or exceeding the speed of light movement/execution.

You don't consider a thrown Mjolnir to be speedy, your prerogative. biscuits

ha! not saying a throw is slow, just not as fast as kal can move. not going to get into a discussion of the hypothetical speed of the throw he phased through though. got a headache just thinking about it . . .

[quote]Superman has no impressive feats against magic. You've attempted to list several and they pale in comparison to the magic Loki can bring to the fight.

well, i don't know which major spells you've brought out that make loki appear to be such a beast at casting. kal (in a world where his powers didn't even work!) took a massive blast from satannus during the demon war arc and wasn't ko'd. he also single-handedly battled an army of demons in that same arc, and while he was cut up a little, still managed beat them for a time. again, taking etrigan's fire is not unimpressive either, imo. it's enough for me to say magic =/= insta-win here at least.

You felt the need to regress even though Superman hasn't had to resort to superspeed instantly in any of his fights against magicians?

again, i don't get how you view this as regression. i would have had to start at some higher point to have regressed, but from the get-go it's been his speed that i said would let him win this . . .

I only mirror that by suggesting that Superman's superior combat speed =/= insta-win against his slower foes.

now THAT i will agree with. though his speed when used HAS allowed him to beat foes he's had trouble with WITHOUT using speed. speed let him throttle dd rex. speed let him total take apart an imperiex probe. it let him take apart mongul's son. it let him blitz darkseid to the sun for a sundip! each of these beings had given him TONS of problems in earlier and later battles, but when he uses his speed it makes a HUGE difference.

This is especially so, when you're dealing with a foe who has on-panel, phased instantly and whose magic casting has been measured several times at the speed of thought.

yeah, we'll disagree here as well. the whole speed of thought>c doesn't work for me for reasons i already outlines previously. i simply don't think loki has enough speed feats that would allow him to do what you're suggesting. kal, otoh has boat loads of speed and more importantly combat speed feats.

No. Superman's T-Vo has as much credence as Loki summoning a dimensional vortex and being empowered by an entire dimension. 😬

lol

maybe a little more credence than that. he's used it at least half-a-dozen times, likely more. but i typically don't bring it up because i don't much care for it either.

And Superman instantly wtfomgbbq superspeed-blitzing with hundreds of blows at the start of the fight instantly has as much credence as Loki phasing instantaneously at the start of the fight. And that's where we can agree to disagree. And I've seen the latter; I've not even seen the former.

that's where i get confused. you've seen him blitz tons of times, so . . . 😕

on the flip side, i've seen loki's 'insta-phase' . . . once?

i don't see loki winning a quickdraw. you do. c'est la vie.

Originally posted by leonidas
as regards the blitz and superspeed states--kal HAS remained in superspeed for prolonged periods. his races against the flash are easy and obvious examples, but of course flying interstellar distances also qualify. as far as instantaneous movement, i'm thinking of times where he bfr's people before anyone knows it's happened, i'm thinking of his outracing the omega effect from a standing position and leading it back to darkseid. there are times when he does use speed in fights and times he doesn't.

true, but kal could hit him a LOT more than thor could with his speed, and as he is being beaten he wouldn't be casting spells.

well, i don't know which major spells you've brought out that make loki appear to be such a beast at casting. kal (in a world where his powers didn't even work!) took a massive blast from satannus during the demon war arc and wasn't ko'd. he also single-handedly battled an army of demons in that same arc, and while he was cut up a little, still managed beat them for a time. again, taking etrigan's fire is not unimpressive either, imo. it's enough for me to say magic =/= insta-win here at least.

If you're trying to measure the punishment that Superman could lay on an opponent compared to Thor, I will tell you right now, that they're not all that far apart. At all. And fists flying right through intangible Loki would amuse Loki, not distract him from casting magic.

Omniblasts. AoE strength-halving. Telepathy. Insta-bind. Blink teleportation. Superman's been completely burned by Etrigan's hellfire. How does citing that help you? Superman doesn't have Phantom Stranger's gift here.

Originally posted by leonidas
again, i don't get how you view this as regression. i would have had to start at some higher point to have regressed, but from the get-go it's been his speed that i said would let him win this . . .

now THAT i will agree with. though his speed when used HAS allowed him to beat foes he's had trouble with WITHOUT using speed. speed let him throttle dd rex. speed let him total take apart an imperiex probe. it let him take apart mongul's son. it let him blitz darkseid to the sun for a sundip! each of these beings had given him TONS of problems in earlier and later battles, but when he uses his speed it makes a HUGE difference.

yeah, we'll disagree here as well. the whole speed of thought>c doesn't work for me for reasons i already outlines previously. i simply don't think loki has enough speed feats that would allow him to do what you're suggesting. kal, otoh has boat loads of speed and more importantly combat speed feats.

It will make a huge difference. I never said it'd be easy for Loki. I'm just arguing for the proposition that it making a huge difference =/= insta-win omgwtfbbq superspeed FTL blitz instantly. Again, it's as silly as suggesting Thor insta-omni-Godblasts someone as soon as he gets into a fight with someone on Kurse's or Durok's level. That's poo and you know it.

Loki doesn't need a career of fighting superspeed opponents. All I needed to prove in this reductionist argument is that he can phase instantly. And he has. In response to speeding Mjolnir throws of all things even. I don't need to prove Loki can punch faster than Superman, just that he can instantly phase intangible. And he has.

Originally posted by leonidas
lol maybe a little more credence than that. he's used it at least half-a-dozen times, likely more. but i typically don't bring it up because i don't much care for it either.

that's where i get confused. you've seen him blitz tons of times, so . . .

on the flip side, i've seen loki's 'insta-phase' . . . once?

i don't see loki winning a quickdraw. you do. c'est la vie.

I've seen him superspeed blitz and go superspeed intangible in the middle of a battle. Never instantly at the start of a fight and constantly throughout. Just like I've seen Loki instantaneously phase in the midst of a battle. Never instantly at the start of the fight and constantly throughout. Both scenarios are just as shallow a derivation of pure powersets as each other. Except my shallow derivation beats your's because no matter what, Superman can't ever affect Loki and Loki has every opportunity to affect Superman.

Revamped Loki Respect Thread is almost up. You waited this long, you can wait a lil longer. biscuits

Loki would lose a quickdraw of superspeed blitzing. No doubt. When it's a quickdraw of superspeed blitzing against instantaneous phase, Loki wins by not being touched. Asi es la vida.

It will make a huge difference. I never said it'd be easy for Loki. I'm just arguing for the proposition that it making a huge difference =/= insta-win omgwtfbbq superspeed FTL blitz instantly. Again, it's as silly as suggesting Thor insta-omni-Godblasts someone as soon as he gets into a fight with someone on Kurse's or Durok's level. That's poo and you know it.

different scenario because thor has never done that. kal HAS blitzed at the outset of battles many times. i would never say thor would god-blast at the start of a fight (UNLESS--in a forum scenario--he knew he would LOSE every other way . . . . ie--when he stood before exitar's dome.)

I've seen him superspeed blitz and go superspeed intangible in the middle of a battle. Never instantly at the start of a fight and constantly throughout.

but . . . the capability is there, and if he KNEW he would lose WITHOUT using that ability, or if he thought lois would die if he didn't, it is illogical to suppose he WOULDN'T, no?

Just like I've seen Loki instantaneously phase in the midst of a battle. Never instantly at the start of the fight and constantly throughout.

true as well, though insta-phase for loki is still not quite something i buy as thoroughly as you do. also, as regards loki, his inborn arrogance might play a role in the CIS department. he would know kal was a strong, fast guy. he may not believe it NECESSARY (and it may not BE necessary) for him to go intangible to beat supes. 😬

Revamped Loki Respect Thread is almost up. You waited this long, you can wait a lil longer. biscuits

yeah yeah. better be WORTH the wait. biscuits

Loki would lose a quickdraw of superspeed blitzing. No doubt. When it's a quickdraw of superspeed blitzing against instantaneous phase, Loki wins by not being touched. Asi es la vida.

lol

only IF you believe he really CAN insta-phase before clark's blitz lands . . . call me skeptical. 😄

Originally posted by leonidas
i would never say thor would god-blast at the start of a fight (UNLESS--in a forum scenario--he knew he would LOSE every other way . . . . ie--when he stood before exitar's dome.)

Fun fact: Superman has used T-Vo on more occasions than Thor has used the god blast.

🙂

Originally posted by batdude123
Fun fact: Superman has used T-Vo on more occasions than Thor has used the god blast.

🙂

> 1 I'd wager

Loki took a point blank attack from Surtur, who was amped up on the Ancient Winters, and bounced back.

I see Superman trying to beat down Loki going the same way Power Girl tried beating down Mordru.. He can beat on him all he wants, and when he's done Loki's pulling out his deus ex mechanica spell, if not during the beat down.

Superman is a psychic of the highest order... 🙂

according to Dormammu, Loki almost rivals him. And he is superior to Dr strange. Oh, and Mephisto consider Loki's his equal in the art of trickery.

Originally posted by amnesia
according to Dormammu, Loki almost rivals him. And he is superior to Dr strange. Oh, and Mephisto consider Loki's his equal in the art of trickery.

(2) Current (Useless) Strange maybe. No way in Hell is Loki superior to Classic Strange or even the Strange of ten years ago. Equivalent maybe.

(3) That's possible. But then Mephisto has never really impressed me in that area either. He's been outsmarted or outmaneuvered nearly as much as Mxy has.

Originally posted by leonidas
different scenario because thor has never done that. kal HAS blitzed at the outset of battles many times. i would never say thor would god-blast at the start of a fight (UNLESS--in a forum scenario--he knew he would LOSE every other way . . . . ie--when he stood before exitar's dome.)

but . . . the capability is there, and if he KNEW he would lose WITHOUT using that ability, or if he thought lois would die if he didn't, it is illogical to suppose he WOULDN'T, no?

true as well, though insta-phase for loki is still not quite something i buy as thoroughly as you do. also, as regards loki, his inborn arrogance might play a role in the CIS department. he would know kal was a strong, fast guy. he may not believe it NECESSARY (and it may not BE necessary) for him to go intangible to beat supes.

Cmon... Superman isn't in a state of superspeed at all times. Which conveniently brings us right to Lois. If he did operate at superspeed states all the time, you'd think Superman would have gotten her clear of Clayface's bomb as soon it started detonating in Final Crisis? In any case, I don't think magic =/= Superman losing. And Superman's thought the same, because I don't recall him ever resorting to instant superspeed blitz + staying in superspeed intangible state against any of his magic-wielding foes.

I buy Loki's insta-phase argument as much as I buy the Superman insta-omgwtfbbq superspeed blitz argument. They're both shallow and rooted in the same reductionist powerset argument. But I've never been above playing fire with fire. Loki may not believe it necessary to go intangible, but Superman would believe it necessary to go insta omgwtfbbq superspeed blitz? Even though Superman hasn't against any magical foes that I am aware of, or that you have mentioned?

Originally posted by leonidas
yeah yeah. better be WORTH the wait.

lol only IF you believe he really CAN insta-phase before clark's blitz lands . . . call me skeptical.

I call you other things behind your back... uhuh

Originally posted by amnesia
according to Dormammu, Loki almost rivals him. And he is superior to Dr strange. Oh, and Mephisto consider Loki's his equal in the art of trickery.

while i agree loki should be>>thor
hes not even

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Cmon... Superman isn't in a state of superspeed at all times. Which conveniently brings us right to Lois. If he did operate at superspeed states all the time, you'd think Superman would have gotten her clear of Clayface's bomb as soon it started detonating in Final Crisis?

Don't go Carver (Oh snap!) "Grundy, Konvikt hit him, Hulk will too!" on us now.

Originally posted by Philosophía
Come on ODG, that's a plot convenience and we both know it. He has plenty of ocassions where he is at normal perceptions yet he is able to perceive and react to things moving at insane speeds. He doesn't have to 'switch on' his superspeed, and since you're bringing up Final Crisis, in that same series he is able to perceive, react and utter "Barry" while the latter comes from behind him at FTL speeds, in the time it takes him to reach Darkseid, who was standing right in front of Superman. There are plenty of other examples of course, like Superman reacting to gunshots after he hears them (in his normal state) and then outracing them, even while drained/powers just returning, even while in opposite sides of Metropolis.

Don't go Carver (Oh snap!) "Grundy, Konvikt hit him, Hulk will too!" on us now.

it is funny though how u won't take supes side against loki and argue for him in this thread

^ You don't have to disagree entirely with a position to argue points in isolation.

Originally posted by Philosophia
Come on ODG, that's a plot convenience and we both know it. He has plenty of ocassions where he is at normal perceptions yet he is able to perceive and react to things moving at insane speeds. He doesn't have to 'switch on' his superspeed, and since you're bringing up Final Crisis, in that same series he is able to perceive, react and utter "Barry" while the latter comes from behind him at FTL speeds, in the time it takes him to reach Darkseid, who was standing right in front of Superman. There are plenty of other examples of course, like Superman reacting to gunshots after he hears them (in his normal state) and then outracing them, even while drained/powers just returning, even while in opposite sides of Metropolis.

Don't go Carver (Oh snap!) "Grundy, Konvikt hit him, Hulk will too!" on us now.

Barry and Wally were going at, or a smidge over light speed in Final Crisis. I don't find Superman perceiving Barry to be impressive or near the height of his superspeed reaction feats. Loki's perceived and manipulated radio waves frankly.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
There's Superman's superhuman reflexes and Superman instantly omgwtfbbq inst-blitzing an opponent before either of them know what they're doing.

Now, as you may have noticed, I haven't even mentioned Loki in my post, simply because I don't want to participate in this discussion -- and why I specifically adressed the misconception of Superman's abilities in your post and nothing else.

I could be wrong, but I think he's saying Superman's reflexes/ability to perceive > his movement speed/ability to blitz.

His stance is that he isn't in a state of superspeed at all times, and used the Final Crisis example to supposdley strengthen his point -- and I showed that's not the case, as he's been able to perceive, react and move to outrace things after they've been initiated, like the bullet example (I'll even post scans if necessary -- and there's more than one instance of him doing this). Which, funnily enough, nullifies even the second stance you assume he took.

Anyway, I'll continue this tomorrow, if there's anything left to say.