Superman Vs Loki

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
And as far as the Bor/snow showing goes, it's not PIS as it was clearly explained in detail how and why said spell worked.
I think it's common sense that if Bor was ready and had said defenses ready, Loki wouldn't stand a chance.

regardless--we've seen loki need to amp himself externally to transmute thor, yet he goes and changes a skyfather without a problem? that is very outside the norm for loki, so even with said explanation, i still view it as pis. you're of course free to see it however you wish.

i could say that i'd love to see him try casting the spell on somene moving at lightspeed, or see if he could cast it before kal pummeled him into submission. no way he'd have time to cast a shield AND try and transmute. loki couldn't keep thor--as a FROG--from nearly killing him while simply trying to keep a shield up.

can loki win? yes. in THIS situation though, it favors kal.

Originally posted by leonidas
i don't think he needs to fare better. i've already said i acknowledge the feat as purely pis.

so, you think he can change bor into snow, but NOT thanos? what about someone like superboy prime? he has no force fields? and if thanos didn't have a force field up loki transmutes him? where are you drawing the line? thor has no force fields and that is NOT the kind of spell mjolnor will absorb. loki beats thor 10/10?

and superman has taken uber amounts of punishment too, much more than i've seen loki dish out.

And I already debunked why said feat isn't PIS. Loki got the jump on an arrogant and unaware Bor, because he knew he had no chance in hell of doing it to him straight up. How is that PIS if he used cunning and guile against a vastly more powerful foe who was unaware and didn't have the chance to defend himself? And again, why is Thanos brought into this? I'm using Bor as an example as it's a direct feat/showing for Loki. I don't see how Thanos has ANY relevance to this topic. At all.

As far as Mjolnir goes, yes, it would defend against such a spell, as it was a directed blast of magical energy as clearly displayed in the scan.

Based on what Mjolnir has absorbed/negated magic wise, it's a saving grace against a foe like Loki. And it too, like Bor's godly defenses, is something Superman doesn't have to stop said spell or general magical offense Loki can throw his way.

And as far as "10/10" goes, I honestly don't know where you get that from as I can't think of anyone who said either character wins 10/10 here.

Originally posted by leonidas
so some no-name, depowered frost giant regains his power and says he's never felt so strong, so all of them are amped somehow? what you're saying if that frost giants can literally be amped by cold? because that's news to me. and so how much more powerful was he exactly? did they continue to grow and get more powerful? because that's what you said they did--"literally stated they were becoming more powerful".

"And still radiating cold. Thy power is greater than I guessed.

But the Frost Giants will have no cause to complain, I suspect. Full size and growing 'twould seem."

And later, when Iceman overloads the machine, they state, "We grow again!"

And this is all before they actually manage to take down Loki. When's the last time you read this comic? 😬

Originally posted by leonidas
some loki plucked from a timestream somewhere. his first blast didn't ko anyone and he used an illusion to sneak attack bill, who in the same arc had the holy crap kicked out of him by skurge. not the best arc to showcase bill i guess. and loki v masterson? yeah, i'd give that battle to loki too . . .

Originally posted by leonidas
cool. pis. either that or you think he beats any old skyfather. your choice i suppose. hard to figure though why in all the times he's battled and lost to thor he never simply turned HIM to snow . . . and considering he needed to use twilight's power to turn thor into a FROG, i'd think the evidence FOR pis outweighs the evidence against.

the blast that was shown would never HIT kal. and yeah, i choose to ignore the snow feat as an aberration.

i'm giddy with anticipation.

Rather dismissive attitude. Superman's been hit before by blasts. Unless you're choosing to ignore that?

You should be. uhuh

Originally posted by leonidas
"you've no strength o'er my magical tool". it was etrigan's magic. no where did i ever say it was hellfire. he inhaled it and contained it, which is exactly what i said. he's also battled etrigan several times adn managed to withstand his hellfire and continue to battle.

Originally posted by leonidas
"resort" to catching his arm? black adam wouldn't try and catch his magic blade with his hand either. he vulnerable to magic too?

s'cool, cuz i don't find your own any more convincing.

That's evident since you apparently refuse to embrace the plain presentation of certain stories.

Originally posted by leonidas
the thread is all right, loki just doesn't have many great feats to his name.

loki has no counter to kal's speed and he can be pummeled physically. all kal needs to do is get in close and loki isn't casting anything. supes can also go intangible and attack from long range. if loki had any kind of battles against anyone like kal, i may change my mind. as it stands, supes still takes a majority imo.

For someone who's so quick to discount that "magic = insta-win for Loki," you seem quite comfortable assuming that "superspeed = insta-win for Superman." mmm

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
[B]And I already debunked why said feat isn't PIS.

and i told you why it IS pis.

Loki got the jump on an arrogant and unaware Bor, because he knew he had no chance in hell of doing it to him straight up. How is that PIS if he used cunning and guile against a vastly more powerful foe who was unaware and didn't have the chance to defend himself?

because he has never done so before, and the onyl time he DID do it he needed an exterior power source.

And again, why is Thanos brought into this? I'm using Bor as an example as it's a direct feat/showing for Loki. I don't see how Thanos has ANY relevance to this topic. At all.

and i don't see why you don't simply answer the question. if thanos doesn't have a shield up, could he transmute thanos? superboy prime? i also asked you who couldn't he transmute, but you didn't answer. and why on earth wouldn't it be 10/10 if all he needs to do is transmute kal into snow?

As far as Mjolnir goes, yes, it would defend against such a spell, as it was a directed blast of magical energy as clearly displayed in the scan.

that doesn't look at all like a blast. a flash, but nothing struck bor, he simply changed. again, that is not the type of spell thor would absorb.

Based on what Mjolnir has absorbed/negated magic wise, it's a saving grace against a foe like Loki. And it too, like Bor's godly defenses, is something Superman doesn't have to stop said spell or general magical offense Loki can throw his way.

but he does have lightspeed movement. if it WAS a blast, as you want to say, how's he hitting with it?

And as far as "10/10" goes, I honestly don't know where you get that from as I can't think of anyone who said either character wins 10/10 here.

not sure why you wouldn't believe it if all he needs to do is transmute him.

Originally posted by leonidas

that doesn't look at all like a blast. a flash, but nothing struck bor, he simply changed. again, that is not the type of spell thor would absorb.

LOKI does refer to Bohr having his guard down before ... And it blatantly is a spell - So Superman only has to move quicker than he says the spell in his head.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Did you notice that they were also growing in size? And literally stated they were growing more powerful? And since Iceman was in Loki's castle, the source of cold was only greater there. Loki's lack of prep doesn't detract from his skill/power in magic. This scan is before Iceman was overloading Loki's apparatus:

I don't remember Superman ingesting Etrigan's magic. Scans? Superman can catch Loki's flaming sword all he wants... and have his hand cut and burned.

Magic doesn't equal insta-loss. But you don't seem to be aware of the level of magic that Loki possesses. Which is surprising. I know Kris Blaze was working on a Loki Respect Thread. But if the ridiculous perma-ban is going to be enforced, than it looks like I'll have to put my Guy Gardner and Hulk Respect Threads on hold to pick up the slack.

Pretty much sums up how I feel as well. You totally should get on that respect thread IF that stupid ban is continued. How fing lame.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Yes. Because they said they "never felt so strong, so full of power" before. You're being quite obtuse about this. You already recognize that cold can restore their forms from shrinkage. Heat also depowers them. Why wouldn't increased cold amp them to greater levels? And yes, they continued to grow and get more powerful. Loki literally stated,

"And still radiating cold. Thy power is greater than I guessed.

But the Frost Giants will have no cause to complain, I suspect. Full size and growing 'twould seem."

And later, when Iceman overloads the machine, they state, "We grow again!"

And this is all before they actually manage to take down Loki. When's the last time you read this comic? 😬 Just how devastating do you think a blind-side shot from Executioner would be? You act like he's weak or something. BRB's durability rivals Superman's, him getting blind-sided by Executioner notwithstanding. And he got put down by Loki' magic (who isn't vulnerable to magic, unlike Superman). And Loki literally curbstomped Masterson Thor. Detracting from the feat is your choice. Difference between our opinions is that I recognize what happened on-panel and you wish to ignore it. It's stated on-panel that Bor didn't raise his godly defenses against magic. These circumstances are laid out for you. Why do you keep missing them? And Loki drew on the Twilight Sword's power partly because he required extra power to affect the frog transmutation from such a far distance as per Thor #364.

Rather dismissive attitude. Superman's been hit before by blasts. Unless you're choosing to ignore that?

You should be. uhuh It wasn't Etrigan's magic. Etrigan was referring to Encantadora's magic mists (the source of her power IIRC). And ultimately, when he inhaled them, he was completely transmutated into his inner farmboy, which is what the magic mists were doing at that moment. No resistance. So I don't see that as an example of Superman resisting magic. Frankly, it's the exact opposite. And IIRC, Superman's been burned by Etrigan's hellfire. Not just that, but if you read the scans, Etrigan rakes his claws on Superman and Superman's stunned by the pain! So why you bring him up is beyond me:

That'd be Superman's only chance. It wouldn't be Black Adam's only chance.

That's evident since you apparently refuse to embrace the plain presentation of certain stories. Ha. Comedy.

For someone who's so quick to discount that "magic = insta-win for Loki," you seem quite comfortable assuming that "superspeed = insta-win for Superman." mmm

Good post.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Yes. Because they said they "never felt so strong, so full of power" before. You're being quite obtuse about this. You already recognize that cold can restore their forms from shrinkage. Heat also depowers them. Why wouldn't increased cold amp them to greater levels? And yes, they continued to grow and get more powerful. Loki literally stated,

"And still radiating cold. Thy power is greater than I guessed.

And this is all before they actually manage to take down Loki. When's the last time you read this comic? 😬

quite a long time, apparently. lol

i concede the point they were amped by it, but . . . it doesn't really help you much. there is still no indication by how much--and regardless, even amped, they would be no where NEAR as strong as kal, which was my point initially. beyond that, they are very slow and utterly one-dimensional so even granted whatever amp they were given (which is STILL ridiculous since the world they inhabit is utterly frozen, and ymir be able to amp them anytime he wishes if it just takes cold . . .) it does not speak well to loki's chances in a match against superman.

And he got put down by Loki' magic (who isn't vulnerable to magic, unlike Superman).

bill should crush skurge. anyway, this is the crux--their vulnerablity would be the same (minus the hammer which can absorb maghic). kal is not MORE vulnerable to magic than anyone else--he's just not INVULNERABLE to it like he is everything else. magic affects him like it does anyone else, which makes it appear to be a vulnerability. there is a scan stating this fact. i'll see if i can scrounge it up.

Detracting from the feat is your choice. Difference between our opinions is that I recognize what happened on-panel and you wish to ignore it.

maybe, but what's worse, choosing to ignore a single feat or choosing to ignore the entire history of the character that shows the 'snow attack' for the aberration it is?

It's stated on-panel that Bor didn't raise his godly defenses against magic. These circumstances are laid out for you. Why do you keep missing them?

not missing, just not lending credence to. without 'godly defenses' loki is going to turn odin into snow? to say a skyfather needs a 'godly defense' against being transmuted by loki is total pis imo. all those times odin was 'sleeping' loki really should have just turned him to snow . . .

And Loki drew on the Twilight Sword's power partly because he required extra power to affect the frog transmutation from such a far distance as per Thor #364.

sure, distance was PART of it.

Rather dismissive attitude. Superman's been hit before by blasts. Unless you're choosing to ignore that?

like you're choosing to ignore the facts that loki has never battled anyone like kal, can be and has been beaten physically by weaker, slower opponents, been pummeled by thor who is ALSO far slower than kal and has no feats whatsoever to indicate he could resist kal's speed.

Not just that, but if you read the scans, Etrigan rakes his claws on Superman and Superman's stunned by the pain! So why you bring him up is beyond me:

i never said etrigan couldn't cut him. he can cut supes like he can cut anyone. just that he's had prolonged battles against him and that etrigan hasn't beaten kal.

That's evident since you apparently refuse to embrace the plain presentation of certain stories. Ha. Comedy.

actually, what's funny is that i'm still waiting for those feats you were going to show everyone--you know, all those uber spells loki casts in direct combat that will ko kal before he gets blitzed and pummelled into oblivion.

For someone who's so quick to discount that "magic = insta-win for Loki," you seem quite comfortable assuming that "superspeed = insta-win for Superman." mmm

now THAT's comedy since i LONG ago stated loki can get some wins. and for someone who claimed earlier magic does NOT equal insta-win, i've yet to hear you say clark can win ANY match against loki. supes has a better chance of withstanding loki's attack than loki has of withstanding clark's imo, due to his durability and speed. all clark needs to do is stun loki with a blow and he can't cast spells then he's finished.

Originally posted by Cartesian Doubt
So Superman only has to move quicker than he says the spell in his head.

yep. s'what i been saying . . . 😬

if ur looking for the power spell feats.... look at him in the thor corps series...

he had them all falling back and using their hammers to repel and absorb some the magic blast...

i dont see supes surviving that sh^%

Originally posted by Wild Shadow
if ur looking for the power spell feats.... look at him in the thor corps series...

he had them all falling back and using their hammers to repel and absorb some the magic blast...

i dont see supes surviving that sh^%

Supes has taken hits from Magical beings more powerful than Loki ... Mordru, Shazam etc come to mind.

Any way I was under the impression general consensus was that Thor > LOKI.

Originally posted by Wild Shadow
if ur looking for the power spell feats.... look at him in the thor corps series...

he had them all falling back and using their hammers to repel and absorb some the magic blast...

i dont see supes surviving that sh^%

^^

AND that blast would have to hit kal first . . .

Originally posted by Cartesian Doubt
Supes has taken hits from Magical beings more powerful than Loki ... Mordru, Shazam etc come to mind.

Any way I was under the impression general consensus was that Thor > LOKI.

really? care to give examples or give us in detail when has the modern supes taken a blast from mordru or shazam...

last i check a magic amp punch just by cap. marvel knocked him the f@$^$ and atlas just by being magical beat the snot out of supes and they werent using any magic or at least very little magic.

the loki thor comparison has nothing to do with this debate.
❌

Originally posted by leonidas
^^

AND that blast would have to hit kal first . . .

in character i can see kal hovering with his hands on hips monologing
and letting the blast connect......

in character i can see kal hovering with his hands on hips monologing and letting the blast connect......

lol

yeah, i don't think so . . . given the basic knowledge of loki (which is what he gets) he'd know loki is a pretty powerful magician. given that knowledge i don't really see him standing there 'and letting the blast connect' . . .

❌

Superman win this.

Originally posted by leonidas
lol

yeah, i don't think so . . . given the basic knowledge of loki (which is what he gets) he'd know loki is a pretty powerful magician. given that knowledge i don't really see him standing there 'and letting the blast connect' . . .

❌

basic knowledge of loki in the marvel U populance is he doesnt exist or even know he is behind crap other then thor or the avengers.. and few heroes

Originally posted by Wild Shadow
basic knowledge of loki in the marvel U populance is he doesnt exist or even know he is behind crap other then thor or the avengers.. and few heroes

🤨

in a kmc battle, each person has basic knowledge of the other, so yes, superman knows loki 'exists' and yes he knows he's a fairly powerful magician . . .

Originally posted by leonidas
🤨

in a kmc battle, each person has basic knowledge of the other, so yes, superman knows loki 'exists' and yes he knows he's a fairly powerful magician . . .

Basic Knowledge
Each side receives basic knowledge of the other. A good measure of this would be what the general population of the character's homeworld knows. For example, that Superman has a weakness to Kryptonite is general knowledge, but that he's Clark Kent is not.

😛

forum rules... 😄

Originally posted by Wild Shadow
really? care to give examples or give us in detail when has the modern supes taken a blast from mordru or shazam...

last i check a magic amp punch just by cap. marvel knocked him the f@$^$

Actually Cap was able to knock him out cos Supes was caught unawares ... Don't forget that Cap, is powered by at leat 5 Gods (the other being a biblical character).

Originally posted by Wild Shadow
and atlas just by being magical beat the snot out of supes and they werent using any magic or at least very little magic.

Actually, Atlas was able to beat Supes because the crystal that powers him was draining his Solar radiation from his body.

Originally posted by Wild Shadow
Basic Knowledge
Each side receives basic knowledge of the other. A good measure of this would be what the general population of the character's homeworld knows. For example, that Superman has a weakness to Kryptonite is general knowledge, but that he's Clark Kent is not.

😛

forum rules... 😄

Your previous claim is debatable ... and doesn't make any sense.

I suppose when Superman is forced into this theoretical scenario. He will be prepped with the following ; The general populace (Not populance btw), doesn't know who this guy is, so we can't say anything ???.

If these are the restrictions of your fight ... Its hardly what u calll a afair match !!! And I don't think the Loki supporters out there are going to be satisfied with a win from such biased conditions.
AS they say; you've created a Straw man argument.