Originally posted by leonidas
could you be less circumspect? not sure i get what you're saying here.😂
if he read the arc, then the amount of times superman said something was wrong with his powers should have been a hint.
Originally posted by leonidas
where'd that fight take place, paul?btw--this thread has been fun. bout time you chimed in. 😄
the superman annual, iirc.
Originally posted by leonidasWell, my initial point is that they're not ordinary Frost Giants. And it's true we don't know how amped they were but I'm not ready to assume a gang of amped Frost Giants would present "no where NEAR" a threat as Superman would. I personally don't connect one-dimensionality with inferiority.
i concede the point they were amped by it, but . . . it doesn't really help you much. there is still no indication by how much--and regardless, even amped, they would be no where NEAR as strong as kal, which was my point initially. beyond that, they are very slow and utterly one-dimensional so even granted whatever amp they were given (which is STILL ridiculous since the world they inhabit is utterly frozen, and ymir be able to amp them anytime he wishes if it just takes cold . . .) it does not speak well to loki's chances in a match against superman.bill should crush skurge. anyway, this is the crux--their vulnerablity would be the same (minus the hammer which can absorb maghic). kal is not MORE vulnerable to magic than anyone else--he's just not INVULNERABLE to it like he is everything else. magic affects him like it does anyone else, which makes it appear to be a vulnerability. there is a scan stating this fact. i'll see if i can scrounge it up.
Bill could crush Skurge if he were turned around and not getting blind-sided. If by your argument their invulnerability is the same, then you should know that Loki pretty much curbstomped BRB and Masterson Thor with his magic. So... And also, Thor and his progeny have exhibited magic-resistance, that Superman doesn't have, e.g., hellfire.
Originally posted by leonidasI don't think it's an aberration. You relax your godly defenses to magic and you get turned to snow. Superman has no godly defenses to speak of.
maybe, but what's worse, choosing to ignore a single feat or choosing to ignore the entire history of the character that shows the 'snow attack' for the aberration it is?not missing, just not lending credence to. without 'godly defenses' loki is going to turn odin into snow? to say a skyfather needs a 'godly defense' against being transmuted by loki is total pis imo. all those times odin was 'sleeping' loki really should have just turned him to snow . . .
Times when Odin was sleeping and was unguarded, Loki took over his body and expelled his consciousness. Why destroy what you can usurp?
Originally posted by leonidasWell, you asked why he used the machine, and I answered it.
sure, distance was PART of it.like you're choosing to ignore the facts that loki has never battled anyone like kal, can be and has been beaten physically by weaker, slower opponents, been pummeled by thor who is ALSO far slower than kal and has no feats whatsoever to indicate he could resist kal's speed.
While Thor =/= Superman, they are on the same level of magnitude of threat. Except Thor deals with magic and Superman doesn't. You say speed, people say intangibility.
Originally posted by leonidasConsidering Etrigan: Loki's got more than claws and hellfire. Considering Arion: Loki's not largely dependant on trinkets that can be stolen.
i never said etrigan couldn't cut him. he can cut supes like he can cut anyone. just that he's had prolonged battles against him and that etrigan hasn't beaten kal.actually, what's funny is that i'm still waiting for those feats you were going to show everyone--you know, all those uber spells loki casts in direct combat that will ko kal before he gets blitzed and pummelled into oblivion.
now THAT's comedy since i LONG ago stated loki can get some wins. and for someone who claimed earlier magic does NOT equal insta-win, i've yet to hear you say clark can win ANY match against loki. supes has a better chance of withstanding loki's attack than loki has of withstanding clark's imo, due to his durability and speed. all clark needs to do is stun loki with a blow and he can't cast spells then he's finished.
Can you wait a lil bit? uhuh
I never said Superman couldn't win either. But the manner of your posts suggests an incredulity that Loki could do anything to Superman. Now (A) you qualify that by giving Loki a few wins, but then you (B) turn right around to argue that Superman has no problems dealing with his magic (which you still underestimate), that Loki couldn't even affect him with magic because of superspeed, and that Loki can never endure in a physical contest. I don't see how you reconcile (A) with all of (B). And in response to your original post in this thread:
Originally posted by leonidasWell, since Loki wins a few, you tell us.
how is loki in a 1on1 fight going to put supes down for the count?
Originally posted by Cartesian DoubtAtlas's strength was magical in nature. He needed help to beat both characters. That's the point.
Im too drunk to argue ... plus I stopped reading Superman comics during Camelot Falls, although I was under the impression that Supes managed to beat Arion -A sorcerer who could time travel under his own power, plus two New Gods, while having to deal with the moral implications, and having to make sure he didn't split the planet in two?And I was under the impression that Atlas wasn't a magical being, but drew his power from some kind of Sci-Fi Jack Kirby Crystal power source ?
Originally posted by -Pr-Had help? Superman left the battle scene to get help not Atlas. I guess that doesn't count when Superman needs help.
atlas had help. massive help. quan's lying.
Originally posted by -Pr-Because Arion was weakened and he had help from Ps. On his own he'd have no chance.
something like that.and superman did beat arion.
Originally posted by leonidasI have no idea what I am lying about. Superman needed the man of magic to give him aid against atlas and needed Ps's aid against a weakened Arion. On his own we saw what happened to Superman against atlas.
could you be less circumspect? not sure i get what you're saying here.😂
Originally posted by quanchi112
Atlas's strength was magical in nature. He needed help to beat both characters. That's the point. Had help? Superman left the battle scene to get help not Atlas. I guess that doesn't count when Superman needs help. Because Arion was weakened and he had help from Ps. On his own he'd have no chance. I have no idea what I am lying about. Superman needed the man of magic to give him aid against atlas and needed Ps's aid against a weakened Arion. On his own we saw what happened to Superman against atlas.
atlas had help. superman said himself that he was being weakened by an outside source.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Well, my initial point is that they're not ordinary Frost Giants. And it's true we don't know how amped they were but I'm not ready to assume a gang of amped Frost Giants would present "no where NEAR" a threat as Superman would. I personally don't connect one-dimensionality with inferiority.
even amped it took a load of them to physically overwhelm loki. i'd say they constitute no where near the threat kal does.
Bill could crush Skurge if he were turned around and not getting blind-sided. If by your argument their invulnerability is the same, then you should know that Loki pretty much curbstomped BRB and Masterson Thor with his magic.
loki tricked bill with an illusion and sucker-punched him. and again, masterson is masterson. and even he got in some pretty good shots first before reverting to his human form.
So... And also, Thor and his progeny have exhibited magic-resistance, that Superman doesn't have
hmm, not sure about that. not sure if thor HIMSELF, without mjolnir, ever HAS exhibited any kind of special resistence. if you have an instance in mind, i'm all ears.
e.g., hellfire.
you saying sans mjolnir he's effectively resited hellfire? i've seen mephisto slag mjolnir and whip thor handily (though with the hammer he's had some success as well) but i don't recall him 'resisting the effects of hellfire' per se.
I don't think it's an aberration. You relax your godly defenses to magic and you get turned to snow.
lol
i realize WHAT happened. i just disagree with it. a skyfather's natural defense should prevent someone like loki from just . . . transmuting them, and again, his history only supports my side.
Times when Odin was sleeping and was unguarded, Loki took over his body and expelled his consciousness. Why destroy what you can usurp?
meh, it's a fair enough rationalization, but a rationalization nonethelss and one that is ONLY required if you accept the 'snow feat' as relevent and applicable.
While Thor =/= Superman, they are on the same level of magnitude of threat. Except Thor deals with magic and Superman doesn't. You say speed, people say intangibility.
yep, the intangibility COULD be an issue, though i've not seen him go intangible and cast spells. i've seen him ASTRAL travel many times and utilize magic (though i suppose one of those instances could have been straight intangibility and i'm forgetting it) but he can't do that here because his body would be left vulnerable. and kal can vibrate intangible as well and has matched his body frequency with that of intangible beings in the past. and then there is the issue of loki being able to hit him, or find him to cast a spell at him. given his distinct lack of feats in the area, hard to credit those as viable options.
Considering Etrigan: Loki's got more than claws and hellfire. Considering Arion: Loki's not largely dependant on trinkets that can be stolen.
etrigan can also cast spells and is a far more serious physical threat to clark than loki is. he's also more accustomed to this type of battle. frankly i don't know enough about arion to comment on him.
Can you wait a lil bit? uhuh
😂
if i have to.
I never said Superman couldn't win either. But the manner of your posts suggests an incredulity that Loki could do anything to Superman. Now (A) you qualify that by giving Loki a few wins, but then you (B) turn right around to argue that Superman has no problems dealing with his magic (which you still underestimate)
never said he could deal with his magic with 'no problems'. if loki had a little prep, if he had feats showing he could deal with clark's speed, i'd change my opinion probably. i don't underestimate loki's magic, i think i see it pretty realistically and i DO think it has been overrated on the forum. nor did i 'qualify' anything. it was one of the first things i said.
Loki couldn't even affect him with magic because of superspeed, and that Loki can never endure in a physical contest. I don't see how you reconcile (A) with all of (B). And in response to your original post in this thread: Well, since Loki wins a few, you tell us.
his best bet would likely be a telepathic assault, but clark has strong resistance to that line of attack. it WOULD however, likely cause clark to stop and battle loki mentally. if that happens, loki may be able to draw kal into the astral plane where i think he'd have a decided advantage. even if not, it would likely be enough to slow clark and give loki time to cast some spells. if he can blast him repeatedly and perhaps use a combo of tp attacks, he should be able to weaken supes enough to ko him. he also may be able to read his thoughts to glean the k-nite weakness then use his own matter manip to fashion some. that would also serve to slow kal down.
that said, all those things would have to happen before a blitz. allowing for the moment some of loki's tracking feats, it is JUST possible he MAY be able to track kal's blitz and go intangible or get up a shield long enough to attack mentally. it is a bit of a longshot though, hence i say clark for the solid majority, but loki has a chance to take some.
Originally posted by leonidasI'd say by the construction of your statement, that you've assumed your conclusion despite not knowing how much the Frost Giants were amped.
even amped it took a load of them to physically overwhelm loki. i'd say they constitute no where near the threat kal does.loki tricked bill with an illusion and sucker-punched him. and again, masterson is masterson. and even he got in some pretty good shots first before reverting to his human form.
hmm, not sure about that. not sure if thor HIMSELF, without mjolnir, ever HAS exhibited any kind of special resistence. if you have an instance in mind, i'm all ears.
you saying sans mjolnir he's effectively resited hellfire? i've seen mephisto slag mjolnir and whip thor handily (though with the hammer he's had some success as well) but i don't recall him 'resisting the effects of hellfire' per se.
Sounds like what Loki would do. Even sounds like what posters suggested he would do in this thread. And again, even after Masterson whacked him with Stormbreaker, he proceeded to get curbstomped completely.
Hellfire for one. It can (and has) burned Human Torch, but it doesn't bother Thor at all. I mean, this idea shouldn't be alien as it's literally stated in the Loki/Bor snow scan.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Ghost Rider's pure hellfire blasts are useless in Avengers #214:
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Thor%20Stats/ThorDurability21-MagicalAvengers214.jpg
Originally posted by leonidasStill on-panel. Not just that, but explained on-panel. crackers
i realize WHAT happened. i just disagree with it. a skyfather's natural defense should prevent someone like loki from just . . . transmuting them, and again, his history only supports my side.meh, it's a fair enough rationalization, but a rationalization nonethelss and one that is ONLY required if you accept the 'snow feat' as relevent and applicable.
You mentioned why Loki didn't just kill Odin in his sleep, because he wants his power. It's not a rationalization, it's the reason.
Originally posted by leonidasLoki's used magic while intangible/undetectable. Superman's vibrations wouldn't put him on the same plane that Loki operates through magic. Loki's hit people before with his magic. Superman's been hit by magic before. Not that hard a connection to make for me.
yep, the intangibility COULD be an issue, though i've not seen him go intangible and cast spells. i've seen him ASTRAL travel many times and utilize magic (though i suppose one of those instances could have been straight intangibility and i'm forgetting it) but he can't do that here because his body would be left vulnerable. and kal can vibrate intangible as well and has matched his body frequency with that of intangible beings in the past. and then there is the issue of loki being able to hit him, or find him to cast a spell at him. given his distinct lack of feats in the area, hard to credit those as viable options.etrigan can also cast spells and is a far more serious physical threat to clark than loki is. he's also more accustomed to this type of battle. frankly i don't know enough about arion to comment on him.
Says the person who downplays Loki's level of magic. Loki always has to avoid getting close to Thor and use his best magic to have a chance. Sounds like a battle he'd likely pursue against Superman.
Originally posted by leonidasDamn skippy you will. biscuits
if i have to.never said he could deal with his magic with 'no problems'. if loki had a little prep, if he had feats showing he could deal with clark's speed, i'd change my opinion probably. i don't underestimate loki's magic, i think i see it pretty realistically and i DO think it has been overrated on the forum. nor did i 'qualify' anything. it was one of the first things i said.
his best bet would likely be a telepathic assault, but clark has strong resistance to that line of attack. it WOULD however, likely cause clark to stop and battle loki mentally. if that happens, loki may be able to draw kal into the astral plane where i think he'd have a decided advantage. even if not, it would likely be enough to slow clark and give loki time to cast some spells. if he can blast him repeatedly and perhaps use a combo of tp attacks, he should be able to weaken supes enough to ko him. he also may be able to read his thoughts to glean the k-nite weakness then use his own matter manip to fashion some. that would also serve to slow kal down.
that said, all those things would have to happen before a blitz. allowing for the moment some of loki's tracking feats, it is JUST possible he MAY be able to track kal's blitz and go intangible or get up a shield long enough to attack mentally. it is a bit of a longshot though, hence i say clark for the solid majority, but loki has a chance to take some.
I don't see those two things reconciling with each other when there is no prep in this thread and when you're confident that Loki has never dealt with anybody like Superman.
Superspeed astral plane BFR? Superspeed k-nite creation? And Superman has used superspeed at the very instant a battle starts against how many magicians/gods?
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I'd say by the construction of your statement, that you've assumed your conclusion despite not knowing how much the Frost Giants were amped.
of course i did. they are just frost giants after all . . . i'd also assume kal could kill all of them pretty effortlessly if he chose to do so--and that's without heat vision.
Sounds like what Loki would do. Even sounds like what posters suggested he would do in this thread. And again, even after Masterson whacked him with Stormbreaker, he proceeded to get curbstomped completely.
again, masterson . . . he could try illusions, but i don't really see them working. more though, i don't really see him having the time to cast them.
Hellfire for one. It can (and has) burned Human Torch, but it doesn't bother Thor at all.
from mephisto? i don't recall that but would love to see it.
I mean, this idea shouldn't be alien as it's literally stated in the Loki/Bor snow scan. Still on-panel. Not just that, but explained on-panel. crackers
circular. we'll not convince the other of our pov's.
You mentioned why Loki didn't just kill Odin in his sleep, because he wants his power. It's not a rationalization, it's the reason.
Loki's interest has always been ruling. after the surtur disaster he tried to be named ruler. if he could kill odin so easily he would have. again, in the aftermath of the 'snow feat' it's easy to go back and rationalize away the reasons why loki simply didn't transmute odin in the past and kill him. or kill thor. surely he could simply turn invisible and transmute thor any time he chose to do so, especially in the early days when thor didn't even HAVE mjolnir. to assume the snow feat is NOT pis, requires too many rationalizations. i for one am not comfortable with that in the least.
used magic while intangible/undetectable.
astrally, yes. intangible? i still await the feats . . .
Superman's vibrations wouldn't put him on the same plane that Loki operates through magic.
says you. 😉
Loki's hit people before with his magic. Superman's been hit by magic before. Not that hard a connection to make for me.
on teh surface true. now show me him hitting someone moving at lightspeed.
Says the person who downplays Loki's level of magic. Loki always has to avoid getting close to Thor and use his best magic to have a chance.
exactly.
Sounds like a battle he'd likely pursue against Superman.
problem is he CAN keep his distance from thor because thor lacks the speed feats kal possesses. frankly, loki has ZERO feats that would show he can react to superman's level of speed. or if the feats DO exist, i've not seen them and await their unveiling.
I don't see those two things reconciling with each other when there is no prep in this thread and when you're confident that Loki has never dealt with anybody like Superman.
lol
you ask how I believe loki might win, then i tell you MY opinion and then you say i shouldn't even believe what i believe? presumptuous much?
tp users have been shown to be able to react to superspeed in the past. there is SOME evidence (not very strong) that loki MAY be able to track kal and perhaps react quickly enough to cast a spell that would buy him time to whip up k-nite or take kal to the astral plane.
so, i've entertained your question and explained how i see BOTH winning this match. you've yet to say . . . anything at all really, as regards the battle and how it would go. if you're so sure loki would win, show everyone proof of his being able to handle kal's speed, and show us the attacks/spells he could use quickly enough to take superman down for the count.
And Superman has used superspeed at the very instant a battle starts against how many magicians/gods?
frankly, that argument is beneath you. 😬
used to the full extent, given knowledge and all that . . . kal would know if he didn't end it quick, he might not GET a chance to end it. without speed blitz he'd have a much smaller chance to win. he could still dodge blasts easily enough, but area spells could take him out--though which specific spell i don't know, and wait for you to highlight.
Loki hands down. What Superman gonna do laser vision him? Loki turns his laser vision is a dragon and now Superman has to fight Loki and a Dragon that they both created. Whats superman going to do physically hurt him? He's taking a beating from Thor and his hammer,and has been trapped under thousands of tons of earth before I think he can take a beat. Whats next speedblitz? The one move Superman does when he realizes he can't really win (unless your talking about when he did it to mongul and Ultraman). Loki can move at the speed of thought and can casually dodge Thor's hammer like you would dodge basketball from across the court.
Then we have the magic factor. Its Loki's fight.
