Kratos, Link, Ganondorf, Dante vs War, Kain, LK and Bayonetta

Originally posted by Phantom Miria
[b]I know, but that is not what was my point. The Scenario, like many other are too caught in game-specific feats. Characters that can seem of great power and importance in one game could be very insignificant in another.

It is all relative in a versus. Something many either forget or do not realize. [/B]

Alright, please explain. I do not think I understand what you are saying. What is your point, and how much is relative? I will give an example of why I think this is significant, and I hope you can tell me why you think it is not significant.

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1:10-3:00

Okay. Din created the earth. Nayru created law (physics, time, etc.) Farore created life. There, baseline established. I believe such things are not totally relative, or this and all debates become pointless. I'm assuming several constants among fictional universes. Nonmagical fire in Zelda should behave the same way as nonmagical fire in any other universe unless otherwise noted. Gravity should be the same as well, unless otherwise noted. This should not be relative in order to establish what does and does not work.
So, creating the earth is a good feat, as unless otherwise noted, planets are assumed to be like those in our universe. Life bearing planets may be assumed to be earthlike. Creating time, too, should be considered good because in all fictional universes time is assumed to pass in the same way. This is to prevent claims that (for example), because time passes slower in Zelda, that everyone would be hypersonic if they moved to another universe. Thus we must assume a baseline constant, or absolute.

Regardless, the godesses created the Triforce as a side effect of leaving the material world once it was created.

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0:25-0:45

Here, the Triforce is said to be omnipotent and omniscient. I suppose I'm be failing to consider that these words might have different meanings in Hyrule. I'm assuming that omnipotent means "all doing" in Hyrule, and that it would also have the same meaning in another universe. I'd say it does. I'd also be assuming that, because the three goddesses created something that is omnipotent, they would also be omnipotent, at least when all they are together, just as the Triforce is omnipotent when all the peices are together.

Ganondorf holds the Triforce of Power, which is associated with Din, the one that created the earth. The gods were unable to take Ganondorf down, even when they flooded the planet. They were unable to seal all of him. Granted, of course, that they were mere gods compared to the power of the goddesses, but again I'm assuming that the word god actually means what it does in other universes. They went with a classic biblical flood, so I'd assume the word means what I think it does.

I've already presented the evidence that Ganondorf can fight without a body and is able to recreate it easily and I've presented my argument on why soul drains will not be an instant win. Namely that Ganondorf escaped having his soul being sealed by gods, and is able to split his soul into peices. If someone where to attempt to steal his soul, he could simply split it and create another bdy.

Ok, the soul stuff was about the Lich King. Can anyone tell me how he drains souls?

Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
Ok, the soul stuff was about the Lich King. Can anyone tell me how he drains souls?

Mainly by striking his target with Frostmourne.

Well if that can be dodged then I don't think that'll be too much of a problem.

Y'know, reading over this again. BT may have made a good thread. I'm looking forward to debating round 3. Let's hope it doesn't deteriorate before then.

Originally posted by The Scenario
Alright, please explain. I do not think I understand what you are saying. What is your point, and how much is relative? I will give an example of why I think this is significant, and I hope you can tell me why you think it is not significant.

YouTube video

1:10-3:00

Okay. Din created the earth. Nayru created law (physics, time, etc.) Farore created life. There, baseline established. I believe such things are not totally relative, or this and all debates become pointless. I'm assuming several constants among fictional universes. Nonmagical fire in Zelda should behave the same way as nonmagical fire in any other universe unless otherwise noted. Gravity should be the same as well, unless otherwise noted. This should not be relative in order to establish what does and does not work.
So, creating the earth is a good feat, as unless otherwise noted, planets are assumed to be like those in our universe. Life bearing planets may be assumed to be earthlike. Creating time, too, should be considered good because in all fictional universes time is assumed to pass in the same way. This is to prevent claims that (for example), because time passes slower in Zelda, that everyone would be hypersonic if they moved to another universe. Thus we must assume a baseline constant, or absolute.

Regardless, the godesses created the Triforce as a side effect of leaving the material world once it was created.

YouTube video

0:25-0:45

Here, the Triforce is said to be omnipotent and omniscient. I suppose I'm be failing to consider that these words might have different meanings in Hyrule. I'm assuming that omnipotent means "all doing" in Hyrule, and that it would also have the same meaning in another universe. I'd say it does. I'd also be assuming that, because the three goddesses created something that is omnipotent, they would also be omnipotent, at least when all they are together, just as the Triforce is omnipotent when all the peices are together.

Ganondorf holds the Triforce of Power, which is associated with Din, the one that created the earth. The gods were unable to take Ganondorf down, even when they flooded the planet. They were unable to seal all of him. Granted, of course, that they were mere gods compared to the power of the goddesses, but again I'm assuming that the word god actually means what it does in other universes. They went with a classic biblical flood, so I'd assume the word means what I think it does.

I've already presented the evidence that Ganondorf can fight without a body and is able to recreate it easily and I've presented my argument on why soul drains will not be an instant win. Namely that Ganondorf escaped having his soul being sealed by gods, and is able to split his soul into peices. If someone where to attempt to steal his soul, he could simply split it and create another bdy.

You think that just because they are the creators, the Gods of that world, their feats count for more than any single individual would. Because they have great powers, means that every power they use is great. I will have you know that just because they have shown great level of power, does not mean that every sample of power is just as great. The things you just went through did not for a moment raise their soul powers.

I read nothing about why their soul powers should be anything special. Lich King's powerset virtually revolve around the ability to take souls and Kain, while lacking credible canon feats, has his fair share of soul taking to fall back on.

In addition, just because Ganon has shown the ability to split his soul, does not mean he can do it at a flash and especially not if his soul is being attacked. The thing about taking someone soul, is that you take the whole thing. Even should he split it, there is no saying that the Lich King for one would not take both pieces at once.

To clarify: I am not arguing Ganon's ability to resist soul attacks, I am arguing your way of thinking.

Edit:
Omnipotence = Unlimited power of a particular kind: Webster's Encyclopedia. Just because something is Omnipotent, does not make it able to do all things. This is a very common thought for people who read "Omnipotence", but no one is ever taking in consideration the fact that being unlimited in power has limitations.

Funny fact: The Lich King by definition has been by narrator claimed Omnipotent. What do you have to say about that?

Phantom Miria is on the same page as me, I want to see what they have actually done with souls, more importantly how is all this important? since all we know they did not use their full power in stopping gannondorf and if they did, their powers over souls may be limited, especially considering dorf himself was not on their level of creation therefore him defeating their powers or not being able to stop him is an opposite claim for their strength.

Omnipotence in itself is a no limit fallacy.

The problem there, BT, is Ganon was granted his immortality by their combined power. (The entire triforce) when he touched it the first time in Ocarina of time. In this sense, he is one of them. His power over his own soul is as good as theirs.

immortality is not power, it is the ability live through most harm. Although many belive in Twilight princess he died when the triforce of power left him and Zant lay destroyed. Either way he has been stopped many times.

Him having immortality will not really help him. The soul itself is arguably consistently immortal.

He did not die at the end of TP, that's impossible because he's in games after TP. The triforce on his hand faded, as it has in any 3d game where the master sword and he meet. In the end, he's just sealed away. It's more likely that they tossed him into the sacred realm.

What I'm getting at is their combined power nailed his soul to him.

Theres a lot of gaps in that line of thought. First asuming the triforce is the combined 100% power of all of them. Then assuming Ganon accessed 100% of that power for his immortality. Immortality still does not protect you from having your soul taken, it just keeps you alive, if he is still alive in a soul state (not unlikely, hes done it before) then thats still immortality, simply not of the flesh.

If he is contained in either frostmourne, the spectral realm or the soulreaver he is defeated. Likewise if he is absorbed by War. bayonettas sword attacks the soul as well.

After that though, we still have no feats from these goddesses concerning soul protection/powers.

Theres a lot of gaps in that line of thought. First asuming the triforce is the combined 100% power of all of them.

Then assuming Ganon accessed 100% of that power for his immortality.

Considering the goddesses created souls, that's a feat in and of itself. Farore > souls. The problem is, her power, along with Din and Nayru's, is protecting Ganon's.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
It is. This is shown when it overrides the seal they themselves placed on Hyrule.

He did, it has to be complete for the user to access it's full power and for their wishes to be granted.

Considering the goddesses created souls, that's a feat in and of itself. Farore > souls. The problem is, her power, along with Din and Nayru's, is protecting Ganon's.

But once again, how do we even know the seal held all their power?

Show me what Ganon actually wishes for, I want to know what he says specifically.

What claims their protecting his soul? your making it sound like the goddesses are on Ganons side and protecting him. Besides thats not going to protect him from Kain, probably not even LK, the soulreaver>>Elder God who was the very hub of the wheel of life/death etc.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Considering the goddesses created souls, that's a feat in and of itself. Farore > souls. The problem is, her power, along with Din and Nayru's, is protecting Ganon's.

Just because you created something, does not mean you can destroy it.

What claims their protecting his soul? your making it sound like the goddesses are on Ganons side and protecting him. Besides thats not going to protect him from Kain, probably not even LK, the soulreaver>>Elder God who was the very hub of the wheel of life/death etc.

Also, nice abuse of titles. The Elder God doesn't have feats comparable to the goddesses.

Just because you created something, does not mean you can destroy it.

Or control it, I think these Goddesses are ambiguious and were talking about things they made, which conquered other things they made etc, not them themselves. I think Ganons soul would be easy game for anyone attempting to take it.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Also, nice abuse of titles. The Elder God doesn't have feats comparable to the goddesses.

The EG feats concerning souls (absrobing/eating them, recreating them as life etc) >>>>>>>the Goddesses (zero, perhaps creating them)

I think Ganons soul would be easy game for anyone attempting to take it.

The EG feats concerning souls (absrobing/eating them, recreating them as life etc) >>>>>>>the Goddesses (zero, perhaps creating them)

Creating them, recycling them, empowering them. Eating them? No, because they're the good guys. Good guys don't eat souls. They certainly manage souls though. The Elder God never created a soul, and he certainly never created a universe.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Besides thats not going to protect him from Kain, probably not even LK

The Lich King actually has more canon feats for claiming souls than Kain, so saying "not even" is a little fallacious.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste

Creating them, recycling them, empowering them. Eating them? No, because they're the good guys. Good guys don't eat souls. They certainly manage souls though. The Elder God never created a soul, and he certainly never created a universe.

Creating a soul is irrelvent when the question is the stealing/destruction of souls. The EG was pretty much fate itself as well as doing almost anything he wanted with souls relevant to the question at hand. Created a universe? thats not important either, not that I belive you unless this unvierse consists of the few celestial bodies we see in LoZ.

And you seem to be ignoring the fact you claim he asked for immortality, not soul protection so he has no soul protection based on that. He can end this fight as a yelling torso if hes really that immortal.

Originally posted by Phantom Miria
[b]The Lich King actually has more canon feats for claiming souls than Kain, so saying "not even" is a little fallacious. [/B]

Depends.

And you seem to be ignoring the fact you claim he asked for immortality, not soul protection so he has no soul protection based on that. He can end this fight as a yelling torso if hes really that immortal.

Depends.