Superman Vs Wonderwoman

Originally posted by abhilegend
He wasn't sun amped. They were fighting somewhere near venus IIRC and that isn't enough to amp him. That would be a hell of a jobbing on superman's part, he punked a kryptonian goddess and darkseid on the surface of sun. Oh forgot that you are the same guest2 of DCMB who claims that wonder woman is stronger than superman.

The format for responding to quotes here on KMC is new to me, despite the length of time I've been registered.
My only real postings on these particular forums have come in respect threads where there's relatively little back-and-forth exchange.
If I make mistakes, please bear with me.

Originally posted by abhilegend
you are ... guest2 of DCMB!

Who?

Originally posted by abhilegend
[Superman] wasn't sun amped. They were fighting somewhere near Venus IIRC and that isn't enough to amp him.

You need to back this up.

I've SHOWN Superman and Wonder Woman visually fighting in the Sun's corona.
Wonder Woman #219, which is where this fight takes place, makes no mention of Venus.
It shows, on the contrary, about 5 MORE panels of sun-surface action.

I maintain that's where they were and the artwork and action backs me up.
Give something substantive if you're going to say otherwise.

Originally posted by abhilegend
That would be a hell of a jobbing on superman's part...

Let's assume you're right and that this WOULD be "a hell of a jobbing on Superman's part".
Are you saying then that Superman never "jobs", therefore this could not be the case?

Does that really seem a convincing point to you?

Originally posted by abhilegend
[Superman] punked ... Darkseid on the surface of sun.

Darkseid got blasted with his own Omega Beams right in the face prior to that trip to the sun.
Until that point he was roughing Clark quite well, physically.
Not quite the case afterwards, was it?
Guess who did the deflection of those beams, by the way?

But certainly going to the sun amped him enough to punk Darkseid after that point.
That's part of the logic of GOING to the sun to begin with.

Right?

Originally posted by -Pr-
I don't think it's Diana that's singled out as much as it is Superman and Batman just being the premier day-savers. You could make the same complaint about people like Lantern, Flash, Aquaman even. And let's not forget poor J'onn ...

I want to make clearer what I mean. Information doesn't exist in a vacuum. Typically, it isn't interpreted in a vacuum, either. Rather, what surrounds it tends to influence what people get from it. I'm thinking it is the job of editorial to evaluate what impression people come away feeling after reading or viewing a work, and to dictate changes where necessary. To edit, in other words. Perhaps that idea is mistaken and that ISN'T what editorial actually does. I honestly don't know.

It does seem DC strives NOT to allow the last impression to be character-celebration where Diana is concerned, however.

This is a nebulous concept to express; let me just go to visual, making an analogy in terms you can understand. Let's take our hard-punching friend, Bronze Age Superman as he has a dispute with a strange green-hooded gent ...

Perceptions of Power. Superman v Spectre, scan 2.

The above should already begin explaining itself.

Bronze Age, pre-Crisis on Infinite Earth Superman was one of the strongest Superheroes of all time. At 2/3 rds power, for instance, he could literally move the entirety of planet Earth with a good hard shove.
In fact, a check of one of the pre-Crisis Kryptonian respect threads will actually SHOW him doing so!

It goes without saying that he could bring a mountain down with a single hard punch. Easy to see why young kids the world over love this guy.
Certainly I was one of them.

And yet ... is that the foremost impression one would come away with from this? His first punch seems about as effective as a man would be hitting an elephant with rolled up newspaper. Spectre seems hardly to notice it.

Superman's second punch is therefore on another order of magnitude.
Ground, hills, air, all shake with so much reverb aftershock that a moat or crater is left around Spectre. But Spectre himself?
Still blithely floating there, seemingly wondering why Superman doesn't give up on force and try something else.

Note: The punch itself, in fair objective terms, is quite respectable.
It is the FOLLOW-UP, the latter following or editing that discounts what preceded.

NOW, however, let us take a look at the impression left when you reinforce powerful pro-character imagery.

To that end, let's just look at the punch itself, isolated and enlarged to "showcase" size ...

... and let's follow with a selection that BUILDS on what we're given in that panel ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cl_5UwS57X8

Look a little different now, P.R.?

"Superpunch" Reference Info

(for above Superman v Spectre/ Superman v Darkseid selections)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Source 1: DC Comics Presents #29, Volume 1 (scan)
Writer: Len Wein
Penciller: Jim Starlin
Date: January 1981
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/DC_Comics_Presents_Vol_1_29

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Source 2: Justice League Unlimited (YouTube clip)
Episode: "Destroyer"
Writer: Dwayne McDuffie
Director: Joaquim dos Santos
U.S. AirDate: May 13, 2006
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Justice_League_episodes#Justice_League_Unlimited_episodes

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
I want to make clearer what I mean. Information doesn't exist in a vacuum. Typically, it isn't interpreted in a vacuum, either. Rather, what surrounds it tends to influence what people get from it. I'm thinking it is the job of editorial to evaluate what impression people come away feeling after reading or viewing a work, and to dictate changes where necessary. To edit, in other words. Perhaps that idea is mistaken and that ISN'T what editorial actually does. I honestly don't know.

It does seem DC strives NOT to allow the last impression to be character-celebration where Diana is concerned, however.

This is a nebulous concept to express; let me just go to visual, making an analogy in terms you can understand. Let's take our hard-punching friend, Bronze Age Superman as he has a dispute with a strange green-hooded gent ...

I get what you're saying, and I see your point, I guess I just don't feel like Wonder Woman is singled out any more than, say... J'onn, for instance.

I don't think it's a case of making Superman look good to make Diana look bad; just a case of them wanting to make Superman look good because, well, he's Superman.

Originally posted by -Pr-

a) Did you like the pants costume?

The one we actually got in the books? Not so much.
I like several versions of pantsed Wonder Woman outfits I've been seeing for the past year or so, though, even to the advertisement for "Drawing the Line" featured as the visual of this particular post.

Originally posted by -Pr-

c) athletic women can have fuller figures.
[QUOTE]

Quite true, but they are generally NOT what the people see paraded as fitness models. Kiana Tom, Monica Brant, Erin Stern, Valerie Waugaman, Brooke Hogan, Trish Stratus ...

Such an unfortunate, seemingly endless list.

Don't get me wrong. A woman in shape is a remarkably aesthetic thing to behold, even rendered in 2D if an artist is skillful enough.
I understand and appreciate DC focusing on that in their work.
It DOES sell.
But ... healthy womanhood is not quite what silicone models promote.
And certainly not empowerment.

Were this not a character who was originally DESIGNED to be a model for people to look to, pattern after, glean healthful living ideals from, young women especially, it probably would not bother me to any great extent. But that IS what she was originally designed for, so many years ago. And, to a great extent, that IS what the DC corporation promotes her as. So she has to be held to a higher standard than your run-of-the-mill, pure objectification, pure fantasy read.

[QUOTE=13785164]Originally posted by -Pr-

Benes likes [the ... Calipygian], that's true, but I think he's one of the few artists that can make a woman look [gorgeous AND competent] at the same time.

Again, I have NO complaint about a well-rendered, tasteful, and healthy female physique. It is only what even you yourself admitted was excessive that I object to. A woman's dress should make sense. An action hero's actions should make sense. They should not be there JUST to serve as fanservice. Especially not if she were designed to promote something good for young people by her creator.

Originally posted by -Pr-

I can't stand Rags Morales though.

I ...

... don't understand you, P.R...

Man.

Getting habituated to this board's word and image processing protocol is some undertaking.

Don't know how I managed to get section-quoting right the FIRST time I tried it ...

Ah well, back to business -- I originally promised to give some visual attention to the fights the original poster mentioned are absent from either respect thread ... ?

I'll start with the disclaimer that these should be thought of as snapshots, especially given that I've discovered I CAN'T perfectly predict the order imagery will appear in when I post several messages in a relatively short time span on KMC, even when I want to. Something happened to mess me up when I posted my very first thread (pre-Crisis Supergirl respect), something happened when I tried my 2nd, something happened when I tried a few days ago just to present shots of the Amazo fight. Oddly enough, the distortion is, or was, affected by whether I view this thread as a logged out "guest" to the forum, or whether I choose to log in and be the registered "bluewater__". In one case I got 2 scans of the same scene, one out of order. In the other I got the proper sequence of events.

Whatever. Not a concern here, anyway. Snapshots these are, then, they can all be verified by checking the actual comic or comics, which I'll give reference information to at the end of each series, and wherever I've made any changes to suit the family atmosphere of this forum, like editing out bad language, violence unsuitable for children, etcetera, I'll make note of that, too.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
The one we actually got in the books? Not so much.
I like several versions of pantsed Wonder Woman outfits I've been seeing for the past year or so, though, even to the advertisement for "Drawing the Line" featured as the visual of this particular post.

Again, I have NO complaint about a well-rendered, tasteful, and healthy female physique. It is only what even you yourself admitted was excessive that I object to. A woman's dress should make sense. An action hero's actions should make sense. They should not be there JUST to serve as fanservice. Especially not if she were designed to promote something good for young people by her creator.

I ...

... don't understand you, P.R...

that picture isn't by rags morales 😛; that's ivan reis.

honestly, yeah, i guess i can see why you feel the way you do. Wonder Woman's costume isn't exactly screaming "strong, independent woman". TBH, as a man, i guess I just appreciate that when a good artist draws her in that costume, she looks hot, so there is that part of it, and sadly, sex sells.

i'm not saying it's right, though. far from it.

I just hope that, even when a writer does have to deal with her in that costume, he writes a wonder woman who doesn't care about the costume she wears; she lets her actions and her personality show us why she's considered such a strong woman.

that whole "not giving a ****" attitude.

though given what her creator thought of her, i'm not sure he really saw her as a role model for young girls.

So, Sacrifice, as a great number of people are probably already familiar, is, arguably, THE penultimate battle between Wonder Woman and Superman of the past 10 years.

The premise is that Justice League associate Max Lord somehow gains near complete mental control over the Man of Steel after years of practice. How, I don't know. Before this story I don't recall so much as one mention that he had mental powers of that sort; I'd be surprised if any author before "Sacrifice" did, either.

No matter. Control he does gain, and, in Lord's convoluted frame of mind, this is proof that Superheroes in general present a clear and present danger that must be eliminated. For it establishes that the mightiest among them can be controlled like so many chess pieces by evil men. Like, for example, Max with Superman.

Diana tries to reason with Max. It doesn't work. He tries to control HER. Doesn't work. Diana tells him it's because she sees with a god's eyes, so she's not vulnerable to that type of illusion.
Okay, then. Max makes Superman see Diana as Doomsday. Convincingly. Then, even more convincingly, he makes "Doomsday" murder Superman's beloved wife, Lois Lane, in plain view.
And laugh about it.

In the span of a few seconds, then, Diana finds herself being simultaneously choked, depressurized, and burned alive as Superman acts with incredibly swift resolve to murder Doomsday by throttling him to death and perhaps even laser Doomsday's face in two, as he throws the monster into the sun. Still reeling from the suddenness and violence of it all, Diana manages to stop the assault by putting her fingers into Superman's still burning eyes. It buys her a moment to compose herself and instantly realize what was in the lead-shielded box Bruce (Batman) gave her in the previous chapter. Kryptonite. Bruce's green kryptonite ring. Unfortunately, by this time she and Kal are literally dancing on the sun's surface, which, if this issue has ANY respect for Superman history and continuity, is strengthening him beyond ordinary bounds. Superman hits Wonder Woman with such a haymaker that it blasts her all the way back to planet Earth, where she hits with such force that it creates an impact crater. Fortunately, Diana is blessed, if not with Kryptonian level durability, god-granted resistance to traumatic injury and quick recovery ability. She recovers her senses and realizes what she must do ...

Sacrifice, visual snapshots, 2

Sacrifice. Superman versus Wonder Woman. Snapshots. 3

Sacrifice. Wonder Woman versus Superman. Snapshot. 4

Sacrifice. Superman versus Wonder Woman. Snapshot 5.

Sacrifice. Endgame.

Sacrifice. Endgame. Shot 2.

Sacrifice. Endgame. Shot 3.

Note.

Compared to the comic, a panel is missing between this scene and the previous one. That scene is one that establishes Diana needs no sword to cut Superman, severely. It convincingly demonstrates to Max, in fact, if not to Superman fans, that Diana could have killed Superman at almost anytime back on Earth -- IF that was her goal. And, presumably, that, at that point, Max would have no pawn to protect himself from her justifiable rage over being forced to kill her friend.

So, Max agrees.

In the comic, Max says "Fine -- ", followed by more dialogue on the following page. I let this end with an ellipse and exclamation because I originally had this prepared for another forum where "Fair Use" was even wiser to adhere to (stricter scan per comic limits).

And I wanted a sense of completion to the selection free of the most jarring of the violence featured in the magazine. Note that, because selections are posted as thumbnails for all registered users on KMC, it would be utterly useless for me to provide a warning against viewing the material displayed, albeit smaller than standard size, only an inch or so below.

In the actual comic, though, Superman is in this pose because he's trying to stem the damage from a severe cut to the throat, trying to give his enhanced healing power opportunity to sustain him the next few moments.