Originally posted by LordofBrooklynNot at all. It showed just the opposite. If Gladiator could beat him with speed he would have, but only gained an advantage due to Thor hesitating and holding back.
I don't want to jump in the middle of the heated battle but Thor's fight against Gladiator under Jurgens showed a weakness against speed.
Originally posted by quanchi112
Not at all. It showed just the opposite. If Gladiator could beat him with speed he would have, but only gained an advantage due to Thor hesitating and holding back.
I don't think this is quite accurate.
Gladiator was doing well with his speed but I believe the confidence factor came into play. That notwithstanding, if you consider that Superman is faster and stronger at the default level than Gladiator, the Sundip augmentation makes his speed even more of a threat.
There is also the Mongoose fight where speed was a problem for Thor as well.
both gladiator and mangoose were beating thor due speed and he couldnt do anything also let it be notedc that spider-amn was landing to much blows on thor and thor had to use lightning to stop him because thor got issues with speedsters while superman is too fast for him sundipped superman will rape him in speed and strength
Originally posted by LordofBrooklynGlads was doing well because Thor was holding back and their were innocents around and he also threw something at Thor to give him the time needed to use his speed to barely catch him off guard. If speed were all that were required he wouldn't need to throw something at Thor to distract him.
I don't think this is quite accurate.Gladiator was doing well with his speed but I believe the confidence factor came into play. That notwithstanding, if you consider that Superman is faster and stronger at the default level than Gladiator, the Sundip augmentation makes his speed even more of a threat.
There is also the Mongoose fight where speed was a problem for Thor as well.
Kallark was going all out from the start and he got the jump on Thor and when Thor quit screwing around he beat him into the dirt.
The Mongoose incident is also like a wolverine incident while playing down Thor's abilities to make a less formidable character appear to be a threat to him. I can cite the Hela showing as a great speed feat for Thor considering she couldn't even touch him.
Originally posted by quanchi112
Glads was doing well because Thor was holding back and their were innocents around and he also threw something at Thor to give him the time needed to use his speed to barely catch him off guard. If speed were all that were required he wouldn't need to throw something at Thor to distract him.Kallark was going all out from the start and he got the jump on Thor and when Thor quit screwing around he beat him into the dirt.
The Mongoose incident is also like a wolverine incident while playing down Thor's abilities to make a less formidable character appear to be a threat to him. I can cite the Hela showing as a great speed feat for Thor considering she couldn't even touch him.
People think if someone has superspeed (any degree) then they can fight anyone with super speed (any degree). This is clearly false.
There are levels of Superspeed. For example, a bullet can move faster than the eye can see. Even at .1% the speed of light this is about 100 times faster than a bullet. But what is .1% compare to the actual speed of light or even 1% of the speed of light.
Originally posted by h1a8Thor has fought someone with superspeed the likes of Superman before and been shown to be more than capable of doing so.
People think if someone has superspeed (any degree) then they can fight anyone with super speed (any degree). This is clearly false.There are levels of Superspeed. For example, a bullet can move faster than the eye can see. Even at .1% the speed of light this is about 100 times faster than a bullet. But what is .1% compare to the actual speed of light or even 1% of the speed of light.
Originally posted by quanchi112No he hasn't. Superman would be the fastest being Thor would have ever faced.
Thor has fought someone with superspeed the likes of Superman before and been shown to be more than capable of doing so.
Also, facing a fast being means nothing if they don't use their top speed against you. So your argument is irrelevant.
Lastly, doesn't matter who Thor faced since he is far slower than Superman thus reducing the battle to the common sense argument of no defense.
Originally posted by h1a8
No he hasn't. Superman would be the fastest being Thor would have ever faced.
False. Gladiator/Silver Surfer/Count Nefaria are all faster or as fast as Superman.
Originally posted by h1a8
Also, facing a fast being means nothing if they don't use their top speed against you. So your argument is irrelevant.
True. BUT CIS rules apply, thus Superman will NOT blitz from the get-go, making your argument flawed.
Originally posted by h1a8
Lastly, doesn't matter who Thor faced since he is far slower than Superman thus reducing the battle to the common sense argument of no defense.
See above.
Originally posted by D_Dude1210No they aren't. Superman can reach light speed within the first 3m of travel. The others can't. Doesn't matter as those guys didn't use their top speed on Thor.
False. Gladiator/Silver Surfer/Count Nefaria are all faster or as fast as Superman.
CIS implies that a character is either NATURALLY dumb (Rhino) or limited to certain actions because of a way of life (Thor). Superman will do any tactic that his smarts and beliefs allows him to. Otherwise, it would defeat both the fun and the purpose of this comic debating. The very spirit of it will be gone.
True. BUT CIS rules apply, thus Superman will NOT blitz from the get-go, making your argument flawed.See above.
Superman having genius IQ yet not thinking of blitzing from the get go against a very dangerous opponent is contradictory. Character's intelligence should be limited to their very intelligence and not the author's (who is almost always dumber than the character anyway).
Originally posted by h1a8
No they aren't. Superman can reach light speed within the first 3m of travel. The others can't. Doesn't matter as those guys didn't use their top speed on Thor.
Wow. There is so much wrong in this statement, I don't know where to begin. Recheck the list, recheck their respect threads and stop being so ignorant of Marvel characters please.
Originally posted by h1a8
CIS implies that a character is either NATURALLY dumb or limited to certain actions because of a way of life. Superman will do any tactic that his smarts and beliefs allows him to. Otherwise, it would defeat both the fun and the purpose of this comic debating. The very spirit of it will be gone.Superman having genius IQ yet not thinking of blitzing from the get go against a very dangerous opponent is contradictory. Character's intelligence should be limited to their very intelligence and not the author's (who is almost always dumber than the character anyway).
Wrong. It is called CHARACTER-Induced Stupidity for a reason. Reread the definition in the rules portion and come back here when you finally know what you are talking about. Thanks.
Originally posted by D_Dude1210I've seen all of their top speed feats. FACT! None of them, I repeat, none of them has achieved light speed within the FIRST 3m of travel.
Wow. There is so much wrong in this statement, I don't know where to begin. Recheck the list, recheck their respect threads and stop being so ignorant of Marvel characters please.
Wrong. It is called CHARACTER-Induced Stupidity for a reason. Reread the definition in the rules portion and come back here when you finally know what you are talking about. Thanks.
I know the rules. You got them wrong not me.
Here is a direct quote:
For example, even though The Flash doesn't clock each of his own opponents in the first millisecond in his own comic, it is assumed that is a viable tactic on this board since it is a proven fact that he possesses that level of speed.
It is also assumed that the characters fight at their optimum levels of ability
Originally posted by D_Dude1210
Wrong. It is called CHARACTER-Induced Stupidity for a reason. Reread the definition in the rules portion and come back here when you finally know what you are talking about. Thanks.
You're talking about PIS. CIS involves the character's established flaws/limitations, e.g. arrogance, vanity, poor self-esteem (Sentry).
In the case of Superman's CIS, if he doesn't know the level of a threat he might choose to test them out first, sometimes by deliberately taking a hit.
However he will most likely choose the quick and efficient way for stopping an opponent, once he knows what they can do.
If he's brawling an opponent that he could speedblitz that falls under PIS, because Superman isn't the type to worry about a warrior's code of combat.
He's one of those heroes who knows everything about his opponent including how many ways they could take him out and vice versa, so usually that's only the plot making him fight that way.
Originally posted by h1a8Do you know who Gladiator is and how fast he is?
No he hasn't. Superman would be the fastest being Thor would have ever faced.Also, facing a fast being means nothing if they don't use their top speed against you. So your argument is irrelevant.
Lastly, doesn't matter who Thor faced since he is far slower than Superman thus reducing the battle to the common sense argument of no defense.
Glads used his speed against Thor.
You don't know who Gladiator is so your point is irrelevant.
Originally posted by h1a8Name all of their top speed feats then. You claimed Thor is more durable than Odin before when someone who read ten issues with both characters would know this is just plain silly.
I've seen all of their top speed feats. FACT! None of them, I repeat, none of them has achieved light speed within the FIRST 3m of travel.I know the rules. You got them wrong not me.
Here is a direct quote:
For example, even though The Flash doesn't clock each of his own opponents in the first millisecond in his own comic, it is assumed that is a viable tactic on this board since it is a proven fact that he [b]possesses
that level of speed.
It is also assumed that the characters fight at their optimum levels of ability [/B]
Originally posted by h1a8
I've seen all of their top speed feats. FACT! None of them, I repeat, none of them has achieved light speed within the FIRST 3m of travel.
Please stop making stuff up. The problem with your arguments has always been that you post with an almost total ignorance about a character then put out garbage like this and state it as "fact".
Originally posted by h1a8
I know the rules. You got them wrong not me.Here is a direct quote:
For example, even though The Flash doesn't clock each of his own opponents in the first millisecond in his own comic, it is assumed that is a viable tactic on this board since it is a proven fact that he [b]possesses
that level of speed.
It is also assumed that the characters fight at their optimum levels of ability [/B]
Keep reading. You seem to have missed the part at the bottom.
Originally posted by Allankles
You're talking about PIS. CIS involves the character's established flaws/limitations, e.g. arrogance, vanity, poor self-esteem (Sentry).In the case of Superman's CIS, if he doesn't know the level of a threat he might choose to test them out first, sometimes by deliberately taking a hit.
However he will most likely choose the quick and efficient way for stopping an opponent, once he knows what they can do.
If he's brawling an opponent that he could speedblitz that falls under PIS, because Superman isn't the type to worry about a warrior's code of combat.
He's one of those heroes who knows everything about his opponent including how many ways they could take him out and vice versa, so usually that's only the plot making him fight that way.
I strongly disagree.
My point is that in the majority of Superman's showings, he didn't start off or finish off with a speed blitz on a much slower opponent. That is why he gets tagged a lot by enemies that move at a much slower speed. This is not because he is stupid, this is just how he's always been written.
If your rationale stood true in any debate, then it would stand to mention that Surfer would always start with weakness exploit vs a dangerous opponent, Thor would always use his godblast, etc.
Because, well, these characters are smart enough to use their best attacks against an otherwise lethal opponent at the start, too.
But they don't, do they?
Here's a quoted example lifted from the rules.
Examples:Thor knows he can't out-brawl Hulk, so uses exotic powers sooner than he would against the likes of Superman, as Superman is an unknown to him.
My point has always been that even though Supes might use his speed later on at the fight, he won't use it from the get-go.
facepalm at what this thread has turned into. I won't even bother commenting on some of the stupidity posted here. I'm too lazy and I don't care enough.
However.....
Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
I don't want to jump in the middle of the heated battle but Thor's fight against Gladiator under Jurgens showed a weakness against speed.
Someone needs to re-read the issue. While Thor is busy knocking away the side of a buildings that Gladiator tossed at him and the girl, Gladiator flies and knocks Mjolnir out of Thor's hands.
He caught him off guard, Thor was busy, and he thought Gladiator was a friend. Thor caught Gladiator off guard twice. It doesn't mean much. Much less show that he has a weakness towards speed.
Not to mention that "great showing" for Gladiator and "low showing against speed" for Thor has several things that need to be noted:
1.) It wasn't even 616 Glads, but rather a Glads from the future during which the Reigning took place.
2.) He begins the fight by attacking JAKE OLSEN, who we all know is a High Herald paramedic.
3.) Glads continue to press his advantage, not at all caring about the girl who would get caught in the crossfire.
4.) As soon as Thor knew that Gladiator had arrived to end him and was no longer taken by surprise, Thor promptly kicked his ass. All before Tarene obliterates him.
^True. Thor pounds that ass. My favorite fight between the two was when Masterson fought him. In Thor #445 I believe. It was a pretty epic battle in my opinion.
And lol at people bringing up the Wolverine fight. As if it's the norm and act like Clark doesn't have low showings.
Didn't he have trouble tagging or hitting Shadowdragon at all in combat? He even admits Shadowdragon is faster as I recall. The same Shadowdragon Shiva was taking on and had the advantage over in combat pretty decisively. It was very similar to the Wolverine incident with Superman trying to hit Shadowdragon and him keeping out of reach etc. dodging his attacks.