Congress clears historic health care bill

Originally posted by King Kandy

Cry me a river, in Norway it's not uncommon to pay 60% or more in taxes, and I would much rather live there than hear do to the high standard of living they enjoy.

The United States is not Norway - for good reason. Understand? Maybe you should move there.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos

It's sheer physical area and commensurate resources along with a positive feedback loop jump started by innovation resulting from early drive to expand the nations borders?

Elaborate please. Honestly.

Originally posted by ushomefree
The United States is not Norway - for good reason. Understand? Maybe you should move there.

Originally posted by ushomefree
Elaborate please. Honestly.

America is enormous. This means that compared to most developed nations it has a lot of resources that it can use without need for trade or purchasing. With more size also comes more people which means it has more manpower for projects and thanks to pure statistics will produce a lot of smart people.

Early in it's history the United States' size also contributed to its future success. The budding nation did not control the whole continent and the need to expand and protect itself drove progress in all areas (there's a good essay about this with a name I can't remember). By the time that the US controlled the area that it does today it was both huge and advanced, which contrasts with most other nations which were either equal in size or equal in technology.

This resulted in a nation with technology and lots of resources. Because of this America ended up with circumstances that would drive a positive feedback loop that pushed it into becoming the world's major power.

Of course even this is a huge over simplification. Innumerable factors lead to America becoming an economic, social(?), and military power. Picking out one thing that made America the premier world power for so long is impossible.

To be fair the US has been a "superpower" for at most 130 years, and that's stretching it, I don't think we can historically say "so long"...

this thread is not a giant facepalm lol

HEALTHCARE RULEZ

Fact:

1) our National Debt is 12+ trillion dollars and rising,

2) entitlement programs equate to 55+ trillion dollars, which are completely unfounded and unsustainable; now we have Health Care reform,

3) we have a trade deficit,

4) consumer debt totals about 50+% of our GDP; we are a debtor nation, no longer a "producing nation" - this is suicide,

5) tax payer revenue is about 2 trillion, and it's already spent,

6) to cover debts tax payer money is unable, our government borrows money from foreign banks and/or prints fiat money (via the FED),

7) inflation reduces the purchasing power of our dollar, but who cares?,

8) this debt, total debt, can never be paid back,

9) international banks are viewing our currency as toxic - since we lack the ability to pay back funds,

10) our AAA credit rating no longer exists, but members of Congress will tell you different,

11) China is striving towards a new world currency note, thanks to the government spending (backed by the FED), and...

12) our currency, under these conditions, is guaranteed to collapse; but who cares, let's be angry at everyone but government.

Originally posted by Bardock42
To be fair the US has been a "superpower" for at most 130 years, and that's stretching it, I don't think we can historically say "so long"...

True, America hasn't lasted even so long as the Pax Romanum, but once you get to the point that no one can personally recall a time when you weren't a superpower you're doing pretty well.

god, its evolved to list form...

Originally posted by ushomefree
The United States is not Norway - for good reason.

What is the good reason for the US having worse standard of living than Norway?

to be fair, Norway somehow has managed to be a world leading exporter of softwood lumber

Here's a question. Why will government benefits drive the US debt so high that the economy collapses when countries like Greece, the UK, France, Japan, Iceland, Canada and India all have worse debt than the US and (apparently) still exist?

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Here's a question. Why will government benefits drive the US debt so high that the economy collapses when countries like Greece, the UK, France, Japan, Iceland, Canada and India all have worse debt than the US and (apparently) still exist?

Because they kicked the can down the road when they created these entitlement programs, and then they continued to put their hands in the cookie jar and leave behind IOUs

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Here's a question. Why will government benefits drive the US debt so high that the economy collapses when countries like Greece, the UK, France, Japan, Iceland, Canada and India all have worse debt than the US and (apparently) still exist?

is our debt still worse than yours? I thought we had done something about that, but I might be thinking the trade defecit...

And like, obviously I agree with your point, America has more money than God and currently dictates global fiscal policy to all but, what, 3 nations/blocks? Globalization is almost like MAD in that way, debt for developed nations is kind of a joke. Has it hurt the American economy? Well, I can't say it has helped, but health care is going to be used as a scapegoat for the real economic problems that exist in America, and clearly no administration is going to address how the corporate system of international capitalism creates joblessness or what have you. That aside, debt will allow America to develop needed infrastructure to address issues that aren't economic in nature, and given that China and other world powers can't collect on the debt if America can't pay (their economies are so entangled that they wouldn't want to either), its kind of in everyones best interest.

From any rational standpoint, the American economy needs some restructuring, and probably is too consumption based for its own good. obviously I'm not going to be too upset when the richest can't wipe their asses with 20 dollar bills.

Originally posted by Moscow
Because they kicked the can down the road when they created these entitlement programs, and then they continued to put their hands in the cookie jar and leave behind IOUs

IOU's that have developed, in the case of Canada, one of the strongest and profitable trade arrangements in the world.

There is no international debt collection agency with first world countries, you guys realize?

The IMF doesn't lend money to Canada or America, nor does the world bank. Unless America wants to come invade us, which would be horrendiously detrimental to America's economy, they benefit from us being in debt to them.

This also is totally ignorant of the global markets where national debt is traded between states FOR PROFIT. debt is a commodity now, which ties nation's economies together, making it less likely that this debt would ever forcibly be collected. For instance, if China attempted to influence America with the American debt they owned, it could easily backfire in a loss of value for that debt as the American economy tanks. American debt is only valuable if America is prosperous, thus, if China owns American debt, they want a prosperous America.

For this reason, china is trying to sell the American debt they own, because America's economy is in the shitter, and there is no money to be made from owning it.

this all makes me wonder, could America take on more debt to buy their previous debt (not to pay it off, but to own the debt commodity) in hopes of it appreciating as their economy improves, thus making money directly off of the debt they control....

Originally posted by Moscow
Because they kicked the can down the road when they created these entitlement programs, and then they continued to put their hands in the cookie jar and leave behind IOUs

Originally posted by King Kandy
That's the dumbest thing i've ever heard, every country on that list has more significant entitlement programs than the US.

How is that the dumbest thing you've ever heard? A look back at successive administrative policies towards these programs after FDR confirms it.

Originally posted by ushomefree
Let me ask you something: what made our country the power house of the world - socially, economically and militarily? Honestly? What do you think?

Originally posted by Darth Jello
Based on when we had the highest employment, quality of life, and economic growth in our history? Extremely high taxes, a strong social safety net, and a high percentage of unionization.

I heard they are re-animating McCarthy to deal with punks like you

Originally posted by ushomefree
Fact:

1) our National Debt is 12+ trillion dollars and rising,

2) entitlement programs equate to 55+ trillion dollars, which are completely unfounded and unsustainable; now we have Health Care reform,

3) we have a trade deficit,

4) consumer debt totals about 50+% of our GDP; we are a debtor nation, no longer a "producing nation" - this is suicide,

5) tax payer revenue is about 2 trillion, and it's already spent,

6) to cover debts tax payer money is unable, our government borrows money from foreign banks and/or prints fiat money (via the FED),

7) inflation reduces the purchasing power of our dollar, but who cares?,

8) this debt, total debt, can never be paid back,

9) international banks are viewing our currency as toxic - since we lack the ability to pay back funds,

10) our AAA credit rating no longer exists, but members of Congress will tell you different,

11) China is striving towards a new world currency note, thanks to the government spending (backed by the FED), and...

12) our currency, under these conditions, is guaranteed to collapse; but who cares, let's be angry at everyone but government.

Be honest with us and yourself. There is only one true solution to social problems from a purely conservative/libertarian/objectivist standpoint and that's autogenocide. No mainstream conservative is willing or intellectually honest enough to admit it but they all know it's true. Is that something you support?