Originally posted by OrdoI wish there was a clock showing what amount is from administrations when you did not care.
Easy killer... no need for shots below the belt. Let's be civil, please. Honestly.
Originally posted by KidRockWe can just blame it on George Bush.
What I don't understand is this: die-hard Obama supporters, never supported Bush! And yet, they admire and trust Obama. The irony is... Obama supports the same foreign/domestic and fiscal policies that Bush embraced - aside from a few minor differences. And Obama takes things to the extreme - George Bush 2.0 (as I call him)! Heck... Obama just extended the Patriot Act and sent additional troops to Afghanistan! It leads one to wonder what people base their opinion's on. The point is, politicians today, say what needs to be said in order to get elected. Once voted into office, they maintain the status quo, while Americans get screwed. This will not fly much longer, as history shows - backed against a corner (so to speak) the masses always rise! If I had to point the finger at any member of Congress to run for President of the United States in 2012... it would be Ron Paul. Never mind what the man has said; his voting record speaks for itself.
Consider this:
Originally posted by ushomefree
[size=3]Easy killer... no need for shots below the belt. Let's be civil, please. Honestly.
Civil? That was like the most civil comment I've made in this thread. Geez, grow some skin.
Originally posted by ushomefree
What I don't understand is this: die-hard Obama supporters, never supported Bush! And yet, they admire and trust Obama. The irony is... Obama supports the same foreign/domestic and fiscal policies that Bush embraced - aside from a few minor differences.
Easy. I didn't support Bush because he was an idiot who ignored our problems while creating new ones.
Lets examin your aspirious claims.
Foreign:
Obama has reached out to Muslims as opposed to demonizing them.
Obama has placed much more effort on international cooperation as opposed to "with us or against us."
Obama is actually fighting the Taliban/AlQueda in Afghanistan, as opposed to ignoring it.
Obama is actually ending the war in Iraq, as opposed to escalating it.
Domestic:
Obama is practical as opposed to ideological
Obama's tax cuts have emphasized the middle class as opposed to the top 5%.
Obama has actually tackled tough reform issues, like health care, that disporportionately affect the middle class.
Obama is at least trying to close Gitmo.
Obama has increased federal funding for science, stem cells.
Obama can complete a full sentance containing more than three words.
Thats a lot of difference to me.
Originally posted by ushomefree
This will not fly much longer, as history shows - backed against a corner (so to speak) the masses always rise! If I had to point the finger at any member of Congress to run for President of the United States in 2012... it would be Ron Paul. Never mind what the man has said; his voting record speaks for itself.
Such shocking analysis! How could anyone be so brilliant as to pick the straw-poll-winning libertarian leader who is against the very idea of government to be the candidate of a bunch of people who *gasp* HATE GOVERNMENT! You should really be paid for this.
And by the way, a bunch of dumb hicks holding signs and nooses aren't a mass, they're a mob who has invented a corner so they can be dicks about it. You lost. When you're 23% of America and hyperbolically demonize everyone who doesn't agree with you...you're not going far. Never have and never will.
Originally posted by KidRock
How did they improve my standard of living?
See above.
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Wow! You didn't get that reference. Never mind then.
I did, I just refused to acknowledge it.
Originally posted by Ordo
Such shocking analysis! How could anyone be so brilliant as to pick the straw-poll-winning libertarian leader who is against the very idea of government to be the candidate of a bunch of people who *gasp* HATE GOVERNMENT! You should really be paid for this.
Why do people in your view "hate" government, aside from the Constitution being ripped to threads?
Originally posted by Ordo
And by the way, a bunch of dumb hicks holding signs and nooses aren't a mass, they're a mob who has invented a corner so they can be dicks about it. You lost. When you're 23% of America and hyperbolically demonize everyone who doesn't agree with you...you're not going far. Never have and never will.
What are you talking about?
Originally posted by Ordo
Easy. I didn't support Bush because he was an idiot who ignored our problems while creating new ones.Lets examin your aspirious claims.
Foreign:
Obama has reached out to Muslims as opposed to demonizing them.
Obama has placed much more effort on international cooperation as opposed to "with us or against us."
Obama is actually fighting the Taliban/AlQueda in Afghanistan, as opposed to ignoring it.
Obama is actually ending the war in Iraq, as opposed to escalating it.Domestic:
Obama is practical as opposed to ideological
Obama's tax cuts have emphasized the middle class as opposed to the top 5%.
Obama has actually tackled tough reform issues, like health care, that disporportionately affect the middle class.
Obama is at least trying to close Gitmo.
Obama has increased federal funding for science, stem cells.
Obama can complete a full sentance containing more than three words.Thats a lot of difference to me.
.
I'm a liberal (more of a socialist side, and if people want to make fun of that they'd better be able to back it up), but Obama does not appeal to me at all. IMO, he resembles every bit of a right-winger with a glossy and shiny Democratic coating.
Foreign: Obama reached a tiny olive branch to Muslims in Cairo, but half his Cabinet are staunch AIPAC supporters and friends of Israel. Palestinians, Iraqis, Syrians, Afghanis and Iranians continue to be demonized, just not in an overt way
The only way to get the job done that America wants to get done in the Middle East is by utilizing international support with the Europeans against the Chinese and the Russians. Against such "threats" as Iran, Washington wants to capitulate and appear to "negotiate" with Moscow and Beijing in order to get its agenda taken care of.
Obama is fighting the Taliban and al-Qaeda, but his generals have undertaken the policy of any Muslim taking up arms in whatever scenario (be it either attack or self-defence) against the NATO and US troops to be branded as a member or supporter of the terrorist networks.
Obama is not ending the war in Iraq. No heavy fighting like from 2003-2006 will occur on a broad scale. On the outskirts of Baghdad, the US will maintain a humongous base and act as overpowering security guards for Nouri al-Maliki who cannot hold the country together without US firepower to back him up.
Domestic: Obama as practical? No president has been a practical president. Obama doesn't run the show. He's a pretty face for all the lobbying financiers who allowed him the position under the farce election processes we Americans undertake every four years.
Obama's bailouts of Wall Street and his breakdown of Detroit puts the middle class tax cuts into the incinerator.
Obama has crafted a healthcare bill that is exactly to the health insurance conglomerate's liking. Medicare and Medicaid will be gutted during this decade, and there's not a damn thing anyone can do about it.
Obama will close Gitmo and then move the detainees to Bagram Air Base in Afghanistan. Or move them to Morocco, Georgia, Latvia, or Turkey. Either way, torture and rendition will continue.
Enough R&D is good, but Obama's heart is not in that matter.
That was the whole idea of handing the Democrats the win in 2008. Bush's "Bushisms" cast the country in a negative light and upset the Europeans and even Israel. The people in charge of this country wanted a President that looked and sounded more intelligent to persuade the American people that everything was alright in the world.
That is my take on the situation.
Originally posted by Moscow
I'm a liberal (more of a socialist side, and if people want to make fun of that they'd better be able to back it up), but Obama does not appeal to me at all. IMO, he resembles every bit of a right-winger with a glossy and shiny Democratic coating.
Apprently you need a refresher on what right-wingers are then. Unfortunately, we live in a real world with real problems. Pragmatism works best. Just because Obama is more conservative on some issue does not make him a blue M&M.
For example,
Muslims: All the anti-Iran rhetoric has been dropped (even to the point of keeping pretty much silent on the unrest), Obama has made major outreach to moderate Muslim nations (Turkey, Egypt, Indonesia) and is actually standing up to Isreal over this settlement flap.
Afghanistan: "Muslim taking up arms" scenario is bunk. The US is actively recruiting Muslims and paying them to fight for us.
Iraq: a lot of troops are leaving for it not to be a de-escalating war.
Domestic:
Conspiracy theory much?
Wall Street Bailout was done under Bush, not Obama, who actively is going after (somewhat successfully) CEO bonuses, etc. Ford never needed a bailout, and GM seems to be stabilizing nicely, which I think is of great benefit to our economy and its workers.
Healthcare lulz. Apparently you missed the insurance company adds running aginst HCR. I guess that was a cover then? Medicaid is being expanded...and the day the government lets Medicare die will be the day every politicain in Washington commits suicide. Never going to happen. Its not going to be unicorns and rainbows, but this is a hell of a step forward for our ack-basswards system.
Even Bush stopped torturing prisoners. I sincerely doubt Obama is dumb enough to continue that policy.
And how do you know where Obamas heart is? Stem cell research was one of the first things he did in office and he has been a bit busy with other major issues. Hell, I've worked as a scientist and I'd be talking about health care reform over R&D too.
I dont think hyperbole is really valuable from either side.
Originally posted by ushomefree
Why do people in your view "hate" government, aside from the Constitution being ripped to threads?
When the constitution is benig shreaded, I'll care.
Why do people hate government? Because they dont understand it.
Originally posted by ushomefree
What are you talking about?
Obama Derangement Syndrome
I think 23% is a good number of right-nuts in America...people who are so hopeleslly trapped in their bubble that they'd think their feet were trying to tax them if they could find them. I'd guess there is about a 10% liberal fringe too (see above) that likewise thinks everythign is a consipiracy theory from the opposite end.
For example, the vast majority of Republicans (I wish they would poll libertarian/tea party because that is the real question here) think their taxes have incrased under Obama, whereas it is mathmatically impossible that they have.
Making up facts to achieve a self-reinforcing delusion.
Why 23% its a nice number, but see the Harris Poll below. Note it is for ALL adults, the numbers are absurdly higher under "Republcians", whcih is the closest approximation this poll gives to Libertarian/Tea Party. Its not a perfect analysis, but it holds water.
The actual percentages of all adults who believe these things abotu President Obama are true are as follows:
•He is a socialist (40%)
•He wants to take away Americans’ right to own guns (38%)
•He is a Muslim (32%)
•He wants to turn over the sovereignty of the United States to a one world government (29%)
•He has done many things that are unconstitutional (29%)
•He resents America’s heritage (27%)
•He does what Wall Street and the bankers tell him to do (27%)
•He was not born in the United States and so is not eligible to be president (25%)
•He is a domestic enemy that the U.S. Constitutions speaks of (25%)
•He is a racist (23%)
•He is anti-American (23%)
•He wants to use an economic collapse or terrorist attack as an excuse to take dictatorial powers (23%)
•He is doing many of the things that Hitler did (20%)
•He may be the Anti-Christ (14%)
•He wants the terrorists to win (13%)
Among Republicans (again, i know you are not, but its the closest approximation I can get to your ideology):
67% believe Obama is a socialist.
57% believe Obama is a Muslim.
38% believe Obama is "doing many of the things that Hitler did."
24% believe Obama "may be the Antichrist."
I think given that, 23% is a fairly acceptable cutoff for "nut."
Maybe, ushomefree, you can tell us which of those 15 statements you agree with!
...on Health Care Reform!
Originally posted by Ordo
Apprently you need a refresher on what right-wingers are then. Unfortunately, we live in a real world with real problems. Pragmatism works best. Just because Obama is more conservative on some issue does not make him a blue M&M.For example,
Muslims: All the anti-Iran rhetoric has been dropped (even to the point of keeping pretty much silent on the unrest), Obama has made major outreach to moderate Muslim nations (Turkey, Egypt, Indonesia) and is actually standing up to Isreal over this settlement flap.
Afghanistan: "Muslim taking up arms" scenario is bunk. The US is actively recruiting Muslims and paying them to fight for us.
Iraq: a lot of troops are leaving for it not to be a de-escalating war.
Domestic:
Conspiracy theory much?Wall Street Bailout was done under Bush, not Obama, who actively is going after (somewhat successfully) CEO bonuses, etc. Ford never needed a bailout, and GM seems to be stabilizing nicely, which I think is of great benefit to our economy and its workers.
Healthcare lulz. Apparently you missed the insurance company adds running aginst HCR. I guess that was a cover then? Medicaid is being expanded...and the day the government lets Medicare die will be the day every politicain in Washington commits suicide. Never going to happen. Its not going to be unicorns and rainbows, but this is a hell of a step forward for our ack-basswards system.
Even Bush stopped torturing prisoners. I sincerely doubt Obama is dumb enough to continue that policy.
And how do you know where Obamas heart is? Stem cell research was one of the first things he did in office and he has been a bit busy with other major issues. Hell, I've worked as a scientist and I'd be talking about health care reform over R&D too.
I dont think hyperbole is really valuable from either side.
Well, it's not rainbows and unicorns.
The anti-Iran rhetoric has not stopped. The Green Revolution was fomented by the Obama administration in order to regime change Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and significantly influence the Ayatollahs to garner into Washington's interests. From 1953 to 1979, Iran was one of America's favorite lapdogs, and they were quite pissed when the 1979 revolution happened. Currently, they are pressuring the P5+1 to sanction immensely Iran and thwart the possibility of the Iranians obtaining a nuclear weapon when they themselves as well as the IAEA declare that that is not what the Iranians are doing. Russia has conceded to sanctions, but very limited ones that would not do harm to the Iranian citizens. China remains opposed to any such sanctions. Plus, the American MSM is abysmal on reporting any type of news that does not have a preconceived bias or deals with celebrities.
There are certain Muslim countries that are loyal US lapdogs: Egypt, Turkey and Saudi Arabia are the three that come quickest to my mind. Egypt is now playing a grand part in stifling the life and breath out of the Gazans, helping Israel defend its cruel policy of walling the Palestinians in that tiny stretch of land and cutting off their food and medical supplies. Speaking of Israel, no the US is not standing up to Israel over the settlement flap pure and simple. Watch next week's annual AIPAC meeting and watch how many Senators and Congressmen greet and give Prime Minister Netanyahu a wonderful "afterglow". The Israelis have plans to build 50,000 new settlements in the West Bank. They will get their wish. Congress will let them.
You're right about the US. That's what toned down the deaths for the United States in Iraq. American armed both the Sunnis and the Shias to make them stop fighting the US while negotiating a deal with Iranian-backed Shias to head the government in Baghdad while giving the Sunni Awakening Council key slots in Maliki's Cabinet. Pure insidious bribery, but what can you do? In Afghanistan, free flows of arms is quite common, and the Afghanis do in fact take up arms to defend themselves against American and NATO troops especially now that the Marja and Kandahar missions have started.
It's quite expensive to fund massive prolonged wars. Obama will deplete the troop number but still keep a massive base on the outskirts of Iraq. American MSM will stop reporting about troops in Iraq, and it'll look like the war has ended when it's still a fragile and unstable quagmire. European, Asian and American oil speculators have already mapped out huge sites for their plundering pleasures, and both Maliki and these oil tycoons need American firepower to protect their business dealings.
Domestic
What conspiracy theory are you referring to?
Bush created the 750 billion dollar TARP fund that both McCain and Obama heavily endorsed in the 2008 elections. Obama himself declared the move to be of utmost urgency, because these banks were too big to fail. Neil Barofsky, the special auditor, calculated that Obama and his successors will fork out over $23 trillion to bail out and finance these big-time banks in order "to keep America afloat" so we can continue to live out our previously exorbitant lifestyles that partially caused this tremendous collapse in Sep/Oct 2008.
Ford did not need a bailout because they quietly gutted their worker's pensions before the US government could do it for them. GM and Chrysler not so much. I've been to the Rust Belt since the restructuring. Go there and tell me if the Michigan, Ohio and Pennslyvania workers are doing fine in this "great" economy.
The insurance companies ran ads against the health care bill, because they are aghast at anything that would even stink of relating to universal single payer health care for all. They abhored the public option. They influenced wily Senators and Congressmen to not appropriate funds to help abortions or cover illegal immigrants. Those were the ads they made. And even now as the bill is passed, they still find something wrong with it. But they are more satisfied now than anything else. They call the shots, and we suffer the losses. Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security is running a $50 to $75 trillion deficit, and each retiring baby boomer this decade will exhaust what little payment they get out of this. I and my future children will not be able to get any of these benefits, even though I am funding my grandparents to get their f**king check.
The torturing of prisoners is still going on in black cell sites all around the world. After waterboarding became public and news that Dick Cheney had authorized it from inside his office, the lid was demanded to be forced shut from the public eye. Obama had not renounced nor honestly apologized for the evil practices. He had merely used an Orwellian tactic of making it all just disappear. Like I said, sooner or later he will close Guantanamo, everyone will cheer and stroke him again, and he will move it somewhere else. It's not that he's dumb. He's trying to cover his tracks and keep his puppet handlers happy. (Plus.. don't mistake that as being a conspiracy. This is a very old ploy. The people are never in charge, they just act it and are allowed certain things to keep them from uprising and killing the people in charge)
I concede the fact that at this moment I do not know where Obama's heart is. Presumably it is in his chest, hopefully, but ideologically and after studying his behavior, Cabinet choices, and foreign/domestic policies I can pretty much interpret him quite easily. I'll reiterate. R&D is great. That's not a top priority for anyone at the top. Clean Coal! Nuclear Energy! Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I personally don't think any side has any value at all. The Republicans and the Democrats are the same party in control over all of us. You'll find little nuggets and thorns that stick out and snag you and influence your thinking, but that's not saying much.
***One last word of thought. Pragmatism does work best, but pragmatism doesn't mean telling Iran that "all options are on the table" and slamming it in their face every single day with ever increasing veracity. "All options" includes the threat of armed force.