Congress clears historic health care bill

Started by inimalist15 pages

Inside Story: China's Economic Policy

Tensions are rising over China's economic policy. Beijing is accused of deliberatly undervaluing its currency, and critics say its damaging the global economy. But what can be done? And could it lead to a trade war?

YouTube video

and, btw, while there are many macro and microeconomic indicators that the American economy is in a slump, that China owns a significant portion of US debt is irrelevant. This isn't the third world, China doesn't dictate aid policy to the US, and has no mechanism by which it can claim its ownership.

As this video shows pretty plainly, neither side is interested in China owning America, BECAUSE THERE IS NO MONEY TO BE MADE FROM AMERICAN DEBT. China is actually trying to offload it.

Right... you've just proved my point.

which is?

Originally posted by ushomefree
Right... you've just proved my point.

Was your point that China doesn't want control of the US debt and has no way to get it if they did? I guess you must have been using some sort of superirony.

Seriously, let's look at the worst case scenario.

China asks America for every penny owed.
- Obama laughs at them, hurls a few insults and walks away.
An upset China appeals to the UN to get their money back.
- The UN explains that they're not actually in the business of bankrupting large countries. (and for my conspiracy theorist buddies I say they would never do so openly)
Enraged at common sense China declares war on the US to claim what they are owed.
- The US hands off Iraq and Afghanistan to Europe then flexes to reveal that, like the noble Sumo wrestler, its layers of decadent fat conceal the world's most powerful military and most heavily armed population. While China reels from this discovery Russia shanks them in the kidneys and the US pummels them senseless.
-- The fallout of this is that the US has a reduced presence in the Mid East (so fewer complaints from there), is less tied up with those insurgencies (so less spending there), has boosted its economy through industrial production. That debt to China is gone and much of the debt to Japan is burned up.

Everybody wins.

Except men between 18 and 30. Also China.

marry me

You've gotten ahead of me Symmetric Chaos, but here is by rebuttal. It should suffice in bringing truth to your posts.

No... China has already lent the US the money. That money is history (or at least a percentage of the amount loaned to the US, anyway). Since the US is unable to repay the debt (loaned), China will stop lending the US money. We can't pay it back; we are a RISK! Do you think countries lend us money because we are Americans and we have MTV, ha ha!? Of course not! Any time a bank loans you money (for instance) or a nation loans funds to another Nation, it is a business transaction - for profit (at whatever interest rate). If the US is showing signs of trouble, countries internationally will stop lending the US money - they don't want to loose their investment. They want profit in lending their money, not getting screwed over! For example, if you wish to buy a 50 thousand dollar car, but only bring in 15 thousand annually - guess what? - you're not going to get the loan to buy the car! You do not have the means to pay it back. Simple, right?! Well... the same applies to the US, but at a much larger scale. Countries are beginning to wake up, and the US (AAA) credit score is under threat, not to mention our note as the world's currency. It is only a matter of time before China (or any other international country) says, "Alright... we want our money back." And yet, we need Health Care reform. What a joke. If your angry, join the majority of Americans - Americans that Obama turned his back on.

For you latter post:

US imports, exceed "exports" - trade deficit! Most of everything you see is made in China or other foreign countries. No profit towards the GDP! The American tax payer contributes about 2 trillion a year to the US Treasury. Two trillion! That's it!! In other words, despite all the fancy talk and words of wisdom, the US is way over their head. The US National debt is 12+ trillion, and that does not include 50+ trillion dollars needed to support entitlement programs like Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security. And yet, Obama pushes Health Care Reform. 100% of the country should have been up in arms over this! If you think tax payers acquired all this debt, you are out of your mind! The majority of the debt came from borrowing money from foreign countries and printing fiat currency (via the FED). We can not pay this back. NEVER! The interest alone is about 2 trillion. Wake up! Despite what Bush may have handed Obama, the president should have cut Federal spending (at minimum) in half. NO MORE ENTITLEMENT PROGRAMS! NO UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE! Truth does not always come with a basket of fruit, but it is the truth - the things the American people need to know. Politicians turn their backs on the American people and do as as they wish. They have re-elections to be concerned about. Go Obama!

Originally posted by ushomefree
You've gotten ahead of me Symmetric Chaos, but here is by rebuttal. It should suffice in bringing truth to your posts.

No... China has already lent the US the money. That money is history (or at least a percentage of the amount loaned to the US, anyway). Since the US is unable to repay the debt (loaned), China will stop lending the US money. We can't pay it back; we are a RISK! Do you think countries lend us money because we are Americans and we have MTV, ha ha!? Of course not! Any time a bank loans you money (for instance) or a nation loans funds to another Nation, it is a business transaction - for profit (at whatever interest rate). If the US is showing signs of trouble, countries internationally will stop lending the US money - they don't want to loose their investment. They want profit in lending their money, not getting screwed over! For example, if you wish to buy a 50 thousand dollar car, but only bring in 15 thousand annually - guess what? - you're not going to get the loan to buy the car! You do not have the means to pay it back. Simple, right?! Well... the same applies to the US, but at a much larger scale. Countries are beginning to wake up, and the US (AAA) credit score is under threat, not to mention our note as the world's currency. It is only a matter of time before China (or any other international country) says, "Alright... we want our money back." And yet, we need Health Care reform. What a joke. If your angry, join the majority of Americans - Americans that Obama turned his back on.

For you latter post:

US imports, exceed "exports" - trade deficit! Most of everything you see is made in China or other foreign countries. No profit towards the GDP! The American tax payer contributes about 2 trillion a year to the US Treasury. Two trillion! That's it!! In other words, despite all the fancy talk and words of wisdom, the US is way over their head. The US National debt is 12+ trillion, and that does not include 50+ trillion dollars needed to support entitlement programs like Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security. And yet, Obama pushes Health Care Reform. 100% of the country should have been up in arms over this! If you think tax payers acquired all this debt, you are out of your mind! The majority of the debt came from borrowing money from foreign countries and printing fiat currency (via the FED). We can not pay this back. NEVER! The interest alone is about 2 trillion. Wake up! Despite what Bush may have handed Obama, the president should have cut Federal spending (at minimum) in half. NO MORE ENTITLEMENT PROGRAMS! NO UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE! Truth does not always come with a basket of fruit, but it is the truth - the things the American people need to know. Politicians turn their backs on the American people and do as as they wish. They have re-elections to be concerned about. Go Obama!

Except that they're investing in the US itself, they're selling responsibility more than money. Many times in the past the US has shown that its sheer size and available resources present an incredible economic force. By investing in the power of the US economy now they can ensure it will be around tomorrow.

China doesn't want the US to collapse because that would be the next step in making them a major power. They don't want the responsibilities that come with that.
Europe doesn't want the US to collapse because they know the fallout from that would destabilize the entire rest of the planet. No US military to help the UN or provide the threat of MAD pointed at hostile nuclear powers, no US aid to help keep 3rd world countries from imploding, no US to shield them from responsibility in the middle east.
Japan doesn't want the US economy to collapse because then China and North Korea would kill them.
The entire rest of the world doesn't want the US to collapse because the US is helping to sustain them.

Letting the US die would be political, economic and literal suicide for just about every other country.

This isn't to say that the whole system isn't absurd, just that it is inherently self sustaining.

China and the United States are intertwined in a tragedy more symbolic than anything represented in the great history of Greek theater.

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2010/mar2010/chin-m19.shtml

Chinese premier warns of economic instability and US protectionism

By John Chan 19 March 2010

In a press conference following the end of the annual National Peoples Congress, Premier Wen Jiabao last Sunday offered a rather candid assessment of the bleak situation facing the Chinese regime domestically and internationally—the threat of a renewed global slump, rising tensions with the US and the prospect of social unrest at home.

In contrast to the generally optimistic tone in the world’s financial press over recent months, Wen warned: “The unemployment rate of the world’s main economy is still high, some countries’ debt crises are still deepening, and the world’s commodity prices and exchange rates are not stable, which are likely to become the cause of any setback in the economic recovery.”

The premier declared that the world faced major challenges and problems that were not being addressed, posing the risk of a “double dip” recession. “Without a recovering world economy, China’s recovery cannot be sustained,” he said. Last year’s 8.7 percent growth was based largely on the government’s huge stimulus measures. Wen noted that many Chinese enterprises had not witnessed improvements in performance and were operating with government support.

Wen’s comments highlight the economic dilemmas confronting Beijing. The government boosted the economy with a $US586 billion stimulus package and $1.4 trillion of new bank loans in 2009, but this has led to rampant speculation in property and shares that threatens to provoke a major financial crisis. However, any attempt to rein in bank lending or cut stimulus spending will lead to a sharp slowdown. Wen said any move to end the stimulus package would be “very cautious and flexible”.

China remains highly dependent on exports. While the international financial press has urged Beijing to expand domestic consumption, steps in that direction would increase wages and undermine China’s position as the world’s premier cheap labour platform. According to a Reserve Bank of Australia study, consumer spending in China has fallen sharply from 52 percent of the national output in the early 1980s to just 35 percent by 2008.

Chinese exports have recovered in recent months, but that trend could go into reverse. The sovereign debt crisis impacting on Greece, Spain and Portugal is reverberating throughout Europe and resulting in austerity measures that will inevitably hit consumer spending. Taken as a whole, the European Union is the largest market for Chinese exports.

China is also confronting the threat of protectionist measures, particularly from the US, if it fails to revalue the yuan against the dollar. Sections of the US Democrats and the unions, looking for a means of diverting attention from mounting unemployment and poverty at home, are pressing the Obama administration to formally name China as a “currency manipulator,” thus paving the way for economic retaliation. Last week US President Obama again called on China to adopt a “more market-oriented exchange rate”.

At his press conference, Wen emphatically rejected US demands, declaring that the yuan was “not undervalued” and accusing the US of being “protectionist”. “What I don’t understand is depreciating one’s own currency, and attempting to pressure others to appreciate, for the purpose of increasing exports. In my view, that’s trade protectionism,” he said.

Washington insists that China’s exports and trade surpluses are the main source of “global imbalances”. But Wen pointed the finger at the US, saying, “The major cause of imbalances is the imbalance between consumption and savings in some developed countries and some financial institutions who have blindly pursued their own profit”. Wen warned that protectionist measures would rebound on American and European corporations operating in China, noting that 60 percent of “Chinese” exports were produced by foreign firms or joint-ventures.

The Chinese regime is fearful that any downturn in exports—whether as a result of the revaluation of the yuan or protectionist measures against China—will slow the economy and lead to higher unemployment and social unrest. Beijing re-pegged the yuan against the dollar in 2008 amid the global financial meltdown in order to stem the collapse of Chinese exports. In late 2008 and early 2009, more than 20 million workers lost their jobs mainly in the export sector.

Wen bluntly raised the dangers of social unrest on a massive scale in response to any economic downturn. He warned, “If there is inflation, plus unfair income distribution and corruption, it will be strong enough to affect our social stability and even the consolidation of state power.” A major preoccupation of the just completed National Peoples Congress was the social tensions being produced by widespread poverty and unemployment.

The Chinese Communist Party (CCP) leadership is still haunted by the spectre of the nationwide protests of workers and students that erupted in 1989 over rising prices, deepening social inequality and widespread official corruption. The regime crushed the protest movement through police-state repression, including the use of the military against demonstrators in Tienanman Square. Two decades later, the working class has grown enormously, as has the social gulf between rich and poor.

Since Wen’s speech, US pressure on China has only intensified. On Monday, 130 members of the US Congress wrote to the Obama administration, demanding it name China as a currency manipulator in a report due next month. On the same day, New York Times economic columnist Paul Krugman called for what amounted to trade war with China through the imposition of across-the-board duties as high as 25 percent on all Chinese goods. (See: “US-China tensions threaten to ignite trade war”).

Strained relations over trade and exchange rates are a symptom of more deep-seated tensions that are being exacerbated by the intensifying global economic crisis. Determined to assert US strategic and economic interests against what Washington regards as a rising rival, the Obama administration has taken a more aggressive stance toward China over a range of issues—including giving the green light for a major new arms sale to Taiwan and proceeding with Obama’s meeting last month with the Dalai Lama. The White House is also pressing Beijing to agree to harsh new UN sanctions against Iran over its nuclear programs.

At his press conference, Wen declared that China was not responsible for deteriorating relations with the US. Pointing to the arms sale and the meeting with the Tibetan leader, the premier said: “These moves violated China’s territory integrity. The responsibility does not lie with the Chinese side but with the United States.” A good China-US relationship, he added, “makes both sides winners, while a confrontational one makes both sides losers”.

The pessimistic character of Wen’s remarks underscores the dangers of a worsening international economic crisis, intensified rivalry between the major powers and slide toward trade war and conflict.

Both China and the United States have terrible economies despite all the grand-sounding news emanating out of the propaganda mouthpieces of both country's major newspapers. Both New York City and Shanghai report market outlooks that directly contradict real and dire circumstances on the streets of Los Angeles, Newark, Miami, Beijing, Guandong, and even Hong Kong.

My personal feelings is that the Chinese are in a more precarious position of a double-dip recession leading to a devastating depression than the US. However, because the dollar and the yuan are so intertwined and the US Treasury and the Federal Reserve are so in bed with the CHinese Central Bank, a devastating hit to China would crush the United States.

It is in all the major player's interests that these 2 countries do not fall flat on their face so fast and so quickly. However, both countries have leaders that are not in tune with their surroundings and thus are constantly jostling into each other with hepped-up testosterone.

The best thing to do is to hold your breath and think happy thoughts while you wait the storm out.

Originally posted by Ordo
Civil? That was like the most civil comment I've made in this thread. Geez, grow some skin.

Easy. I didn't support Bush because he was an idiot who ignored our problems while creating new ones.

Lets examin your aspirious claims.

Foreign:
Obama has reached out to Muslims as opposed to demonizing them.
Obama has placed much more effort on international cooperation as opposed to "with us or against us."
Obama is actually fighting the Taliban/AlQueda in Afghanistan, as opposed to ignoring it.
Obama is actually ending the war in Iraq, as opposed to escalating it.

Domestic:
Obama is practical as opposed to ideological
Obama's tax cuts have emphasized the middle class as opposed to the top 5%.
Obama has actually tackled tough reform issues, like health care, that disporportionately affect the middle class.
Obama is at least trying to close Gitmo.
Obama has increased federal funding for science, stem cells.
Obama can complete a full sentance containing more than three words.

Thats a lot of difference to me.

Such shocking analysis! How could anyone be so brilliant as to pick the straw-poll-winning libertarian leader who is against the very idea of government to be the candidate of a bunch of people who *gasp* HATE GOVERNMENT! You should really be paid for this.

And by the way, a bunch of dumb hicks holding signs and nooses aren't a mass, they're a mob who has invented a corner so they can be dicks about it. You lost. When you're 23% of America and hyperbolically demonize everyone who doesn't agree with you...you're not going far. Never have and never will.

See above.

I did, I just refused to acknowledge it.

What do you mean see above?

Nothing you wrote explained how my standard of living will become better because of this bill.

Obama is practical?

Would you say the same thing about someone that goes out and buys a 100,000 dollar car when they they're already 100,000 in debt?

Originally posted by KidRock
Would you say the same thing about someone that goes out and buys a 100,000 dollar car when they they're already 100,000 in debt?

Depends on how much this person makes.

But, your example is sh*t, KR. It doesn't even do good to expess what you mean.

Better example:

You are 13,000 dollers in debt.

And you are increasing your debt by 1900 dollars a year.
http://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/reports/pd/histdebt/histdebt_histo5.htm

Your revenue is 4600 a year.
http://www.usgovernmentrevenue.com/

And then you decide to make a purchase that will cost you $200 a year, by it's 10th year...but saves you 138 dollars in, net, in those 10 years?
http://gothamist.com/2010/03/18/report_health_care_bill_costs_940_b.php

I'd rather go with the direct numbers..

You make a purchase that will cost 940 dollars it's first year:
http://news.firedoglake.com/2010/03/18/cbo-health-care-bill-costs-940b-lowers-deficit-130b/

So, not only are you increasing your short term spending, you're also STILL waaaaaaaay over spending.

In other words, we are in major debt, are increasing our debt, and only pipe dreams tell us we will decrease debt. We all know that we won't save jack after 10 years and it will just increase our debt. But, I hope I'm wrong. 😄

Originally posted by dadudemon
Depends on how much this person makes.

But, your example is sh*t, KR. It doesn't even do good to expess what you mean.

Better example:

You are 13,000 dollers in debt.

And you are increasing your debt by 1900 dollars a year.
http://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/reports/pd/histdebt/histdebt_histo5.htm

Your revenue is 4600 a year.
http://www.usgovernmentrevenue.com/

And then you decide to make a purchase that will cost you $200 a year, by it's 10th year...but saves you 138 dollars in, net, in those 10 years?
http://gothamist.com/2010/03/18/report_health_care_bill_costs_940_b.php

I'd rather go with the direct numbers..

You make a purchase that will cost 940 dollars it's first year:
http://news.firedoglake.com/2010/03/18/cbo-health-care-bill-costs-940b-lowers-deficit-130b/

So, not only are you increasing your short term spending, you're also STILL waaaaaaaay over spending.

In other words, we are in major debt, are increasing our debt, and only pipe dreams tell us we will decrease debt. We all know that we won't save jack after 10 years and it will just increase our debt. But, I hope I'm wrong. 😄

All the feds have to do is legalize pot, and tax it. 😉 Then the pipe dream comes true.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
All the feds have to do is legalize pot, and tax it. 😉 Then the pipe dream comes true.
😆

Shakya for pres.

Originally posted by dadudemon
😆

Shakya for pres.

😂 My campaign slogan would be "I did inhale".

Originally posted by Ordo
I prefer to describe myself as a neo-libertarian-nazi-socialist-facist-communist-imperialist.

[b]1. Adult children may remain as dependents on their parents’ policy until their 27th birthday.

2. Children under age 19 may not be excluded for pre-existing conditions.

3. No more lifetime or annual caps on coverage.

4. Free preventative care for all on medicare.

5. Adults with pre-existing conditions may buy into a national high-risk pool until the exchanges come online. While these will not be cheap, they’re still better than total exclusion and get some benefit from a wider pool of insureds.

6. Small businesses will be entitled to a tax credit for 2009 and 2010, which could be as much as 50% of what they pay for employees’ health insurance.

7. The “donut hole” closes for Medicare patients, making prescription medications more affordable for seniors.

8. Requirement that all insurers must post their balance sheets on the Internet and fully disclose administrative costs, executive compensation packages, and benefit payments.

9. Authorizes early funding of community health centers in all 50 states. Community health centers provide primary, dental and vision services to people in the community, based on a sliding scale for payment according to ability to pay.

10. No more rescissions. Effective immediately, you can't lose your insurance because you get sick.

[/B]

Isn't this the more important part?

Originally posted by ushomefree
All China needs to do is manage their money properly, and they'll be okay, aside from taking an initial hit. China will not go under; their currency will remain strong, since it's not inflated. They are currently doing this now - preparing for the collapse of the US dollar. In fact, China is encouraging their citizens to purchase Gold and Silver to off set the lose. This is a slap in the face to America, but I can't blame them.

Are you that naive?

Check that: http://www.uschina.org/statistics/tradetable.html

Look at the 2 last table, and ask yourself:"Would it be a good thing for China to crash US?"

If it would suck for everybody that US fall under another economical crisis (specially for us, canadien), it would also suck for China, to loose what is, by far, their most important partner.

As for the thread itself, well, congrats America!

cheers

The Dollar Bubble

YouTube video

you posted that already. we thought it was silly the first time.