I don't have the answer
Hey Inimalist I noticed that you are studying neuroscience. Although I have had limited exposure to the subject I do remember some interesting reading from so many years ago. We had studied evolutionary epistemology and covered top down and bottom up theory along the way. I was just going to suggest if you haven't already, to check out books by Robert Searle and one by Sharon Begley called Train your Mind change your Brain. Just throwing that out. Personally after reading a few of the post here I think I am still not quite sure where I stand on the issue of free will. I often wonder how scientist retain their religious convictions when faced with empirical knowledge and a reductionist training.
Re: I don't have the answer
Originally posted by calvinNhobbes
Hey Inimalist
the "i" is not capitalized; inimalist
Originally posted by calvinNhobbes
I noticed that you are studying neuroscience. Although I have had limited exposure to the subject I do remember some interesting reading from so many years ago. We had studied evolutionary epistemology and covered top down and bottom up theory along the way. I was just going to suggest if you haven't already, to check out books by Robert Searle and one by Sharon Begley called Train your Mind change your Brain. Just throwing that out.
yup, it is taught in psych 101 now, sort of at the foundations of all neurosicence and psych at the moment
I do my work more in perception, so from that perspective even "top down" looks pretty "bottom up", but thats a totally different issue. If you are interested in some decent work about it, look up Dan Dennet or Sue Blackmore. or VS ramachandran.
Some of the best stuff is Ben Libet's "free won't", but from there it starts getting a bit more dense.
Originally posted by calvinNhobbes
Personally after reading a few of the post here I think I am still not quite sure where I stand on the issue of free will.
nothing is really know about it for sure, and even the stuff I'm talking about isn't totally mutually exclusive with some sense of free will. Certainly not as a "soul" or a "ghost in the machine" or even in a Carteasian sense, but there is still some degree of intentionallity in human behaviour.
There is a condition known as Pseudo-depression, where a person looses basically everything we would call "human" about themselves. They can still respond if asked a question, but otherwise will just sit and stare, often soiling themselves and not careing at all (oddly, they will still smoke). From this, it seems clear that there is at least something within us that drives us to do things, and that we have some will over it (though maybe not with smoking).
Originally posted by calvinNhobbes
I often wonder how scientist retain their religious convictions when faced with empirical knowledge and a reductionist training.
One of the RAs working in the lab with me a couple of years ago was a Creationist. The one before that believed in ghosts.
That being said, those people are among the very few who things like a "soul" or "spirit" would be relevant to, even at the undergrad level in this. I can't think of one serious prof in the psych department I was at who believed in God or the supernatural. Especially in neuroscience, you really have no room at all for the soul, it becomes nonsensical.
Which always struck me as strange. Evolution leaves huge gaps open for religion. God could have started it, been directing it, etc, not a hard fit with creation at all. Psych has, in the past 40-50 years, redefined the self in such a way that any religious conceptions of "soul" are in no way congruent, yet everyone causes such a fuss over evolution, and none about neuroscience. lol.
Thanks for the suggestions inimalist. Speaking of perception and reality you should check out "Waking Life" , its a very cool movie. I personally don't have the capacity to ponder free will too much I think more along the lines of pragmatic behavior so if tomorrow turns into yesterday and a tree scares me in the woods when I wasn't looking and 2+2 = 6 I'll hopeful be able to adjust enough to get on with things. Peace.
Originally posted by calvinNhobbes
Thanks for the suggestions inimalist. Speaking of perception and reality you should check out "Waking Life" , its a very cool movie. I personally don't have the capacity to ponder free will too much I think more along the lines of pragmatic behavior so if tomorrow turns into yesterday and a tree scares me in the woods when I wasn't looking and 2+2 = 6 I'll hopeful be able to adjust enough to get on with things. Peace.
Free will is not a concept of multiple facets, Free Will is simply the ability of a human to choose what he wishes to do in a certain situation. No one is forcing him to choose one way or another, we all have the right and ability to choose and do what we want.
Let me give you an example, you walk into oh, say...McDonalds...Free Will simply gives you the ability to choose between a Double Cheeseburger or a Big Mac.
In a more serious example, Say you see a murder or a rape...Free Will gives you the choice of reporting your observation to the Police or you could choose to not tell anyone and go on like nothing happened.
Free Will is not a complex issue, it's just an issue that has been made complex by those who would wish to control others by depriving others from it. e.g. Communists, Fascists, and Dictators.
Also for all of you who believe there is no free will and that your actions and choices have been chosen for you and that you just haven't made them yet....No one can know if it is or not, but the fact of the matter is YOU DO have a CHOICE. Hence FREE WILL.
Originally posted by MasterAshenVor
Free will is not a concept of multiple facets, Free Will is simply the ability of a human to choose what he wishes to do in a certain situation. No one is forcing him to choose one way or another, we all have the right and ability to choose and do what we want.Let me give you an example, you walk into oh, say...McDonalds...Free Will simply gives you the ability to choose between a Double Cheeseburger or a Big Mac.
In a more serious example, Say you see a murder or a rape...Free Will gives you the choice of reporting your observation to the Police or you could choose to not tell anyone and go on like nothing happened.
Free Will is not a complex issue, it's just an issue that has been made complex by those who would wish to control others by depriving others from it. e.g. Communists, Fascists, and Dictators.
Also for all of you who believe there is no free will and that your actions and choices have been chosen for you and that you just haven't made them yet....No one can know if it is or not, but the fact of the matter is YOU DO have a CHOICE. Hence FREE WILL.
You don't know whether any of the stuff you said is actually true. It's a decent summary of the pro free will side, but it is no proof of anything.
Originally posted by MasterAshenVor
Free will is not a concept of multiple facets, Free Will is simply the ability of a human to choose what he wishes to do in a certain situation. No one is forcing him to choose one way or another, we all have the right and ability to choose and do what we want.
free will has nothing to do with rights... even if we were told not to act in a certain way, if we had free will, we could. I think you are confusing the concept with personal freedom a little bit.
Originally posted by MasterAshenVor
Let me give you an example, you walk into oh, say...McDonalds...Free Will simply gives you the ability to choose between a Double Cheeseburger or a Big Mac.
actually, this is incorrect. The "You" of western philosophy, the actor in the mind, does not choose options like this. It might be that "you" had the ability to stop certain actions prior to their completion, but your motivation and decision making processes which would have determined nearly 100% of your behaviour in the McDonalds situation are processed before you have any conscious awareness of them.
Your brain had already decided you wanted a big mac and was making the proper plans to reach this decision before you were ever consciously aware that you were hungry.
Originally posted by MasterAshenVor
In a more serious example, Say you see a murder or a rape...Free Will gives you the choice of reporting your observation to the Police or you could choose to not tell anyone and go on like nothing happened.
actually, in that example specifically, people's behaviour has been found to be related much more to how many other people are around, and what they are doing. Taken with the fact that decision making occurs before conscious awareness, it is likely that people have little "choice" in their response to horrific acts.
Originally posted by MasterAshenVor
Free Will is not a complex issue, it's just an issue that has been made complex by those who would wish to control others by depriving others from it. e.g. Communists, Fascists, and Dictators.
free will is an exceptionally complex issue, the problem is that you have totally confused "free will" with "personal freedom"
else, your strawman ad homenin makes no sense whatsoever
Originally posted by MasterAshenVor
Also for all of you who believe there is no free will and that your actions and choices have been chosen for you and that you just haven't made them yet....No one can know if it is or not, but the fact of the matter is YOU DO have a CHOICE. Hence FREE WILL.
? So, your proof against determinism is "no one can know"
that also applies to free will then, no one can know if you have free will, so just act like you dont.
you really haven't shown anything
How can one claim with certainty that the material universe is indeed deterministic and that the future is entirely and unidirectionally (a single cause can only lead to a single effect, not multiple possible ones) dictated by the present?
There are several material systems that as far as we can perceive and understand can only be described as probabilistic and indeterministic. A lot of research also presents systems previously assumed to be deterministic as indeterministic.