Team New Gods Vs. Team Herald

Originally posted by Q99
Lobo, for one. DC's Thor, iirc. WW1m. Pre-Crisis, she beat down Supergirl.

I'm referring to Nova, not Barda.

In regards to Barda, her fight with Lobo had her transformed into a Czarnian, so I don't know how valid that is, and she had a stalemate against Thor, rather than a win.

Also, if we're talking about the same scene, she TKOed Supergirl POST, rather than PRE, Crisis.

But she does have wins. She knocked out Byrne Supes with a single blast from her mega rod, and she defeated Wonder Woman 1 Million. She essentially stalemated Wonder Woman in hand to hand combat, until Wonder Woman used her advantage of flight to win that conflict. She's beat a number of the furies, destroyed a number of GL constructs, defeated a bunch of nameless (but supposedly powerful) Apokolips forces, etc.

Barda is quite a threat. Even those here she'd lose against, she'd only do so after a rough fight that'd give them a fair amount of damage too.

No doubt, her tenacity would give her a good shot at some of these, but the fact remains that she has less overall power than most, I think.

Originally posted by Desaad
I'm not disregarding them all, I'm simply taking the average. "One bad showing" doesn't seem so bad until you take into account the total number of showings he's had in his post Annihilation form. When one does, one realizes it compromises one of his few extended appearances, and has to give it weight.

Or you could just ignore it because you don't like it. But that's not really debating so much as masturbating.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Not really... if he is MORE powerful in his current incarnation, that means all his prior showings are still valid as well.

agree agree

Originally posted by King Kandy
Not really... if he is MORE powerful in his current incarnation, that means all his prior showings are still valid as well.

The nature of his power got changed. If he were more powerful, than his showings would bear that out. I'm unsure that the power up is really being acknowledged, of it did all that it was supposed to do.

Because if he HAS been powered up, then that showing is all the worse, and yet still very staunchly in continuity.

Originally posted by Desaad
I'm not disregarding them all, I'm simply taking the average. "One bad showing" doesn't seem so bad until you take into account the total number of showings he's had in his post Annihilation form. When one does, one realizes it compromises one of his few extended appearances, and has to give it weight.

Or you could just ignore it because you don't like it. But that's not really debating so much as masturbating.

What we take into account on KMC is consistency. He has consistently performed great feats and been portrayed at a given level since his annihilation powerup. That one feat in which surfer is portrayed as a street leveler is really of no consequence since it is entirely contradictory to his other portrayals and established history and hence is PIS and does not apply per forum rules.. It doesnt compromise anything. Frankly ur attempt at "averaging" it out by including a feat which is unusable per forum rules and contradictory to the entire character is quite comical. One extremely low showing (which is PIS anyways) does not mean u can suddenly sell surfer short of the power level he is regularly portrayed at.

Originally posted by Desaad
The nature of his power got changed. If he were more powerful, than his showings would bear that out. I'm unsure that the power up is really being acknowledged, of it did all that it was supposed to do.

Because if he HAS been powered up, then that showing is all the worse, and yet still very staunchly in continuity.

It was confirmed in annhilation that he did get powered up...and he has been regularly operating at high levels since then.

That bad showing while in continuity is an anomaly and clear PIS which invalidates it on the forum.

Either way, Takion & IM make this in favor for the NG's.

Originally posted by Naija boy
[B]What we take into account on KMC is consistency. He has consistently performed great feats and been portrayed at a given level since his annihilation powerup.

No, he hasn't. Because a full 10% of his showings have him getting putting into an armbar by Black Panther, and a lot of the rest dont' have him doing anything that establishes him at a particularly high level.

Frankly ur attempt at "averaging" it out by including a feat which is unusable per forum rules and contradictory to the entire character is quite comical.

"Forum rules" are ridiculous and restrictive. And, by the way, counter productive.

Who decides what is PIS and what isn't? It's an excuse to dismiss anything you don't like and keep all the stuff you do. And that's fine when you're cobbling together your own continuity for entertainment purposes - we all do it - but when you're in a debate, EVERYTHING has to be given some weight, because that is the only fair way to create a whole picture. If the number of showings really IS marginal enough to be dismissed as PIS then it won't have a significant effect on a character's average anyway.

Originally posted by Desaad
No, he hasn't. Because a full 10% of his showings have him getting putting into an armbar by Black Panther, and a lot of the rest dont' have him doing anything that establishes him at a particularly high level.

"Forum rules" are ridiculous and restrictive. And, by the way, counter productive.

Who decides what is PIS and what isn't? It's an excuse to dismiss anything you don't like and keep all the stuff you do. And that's fine when you're cobbling together your own continuity for entertainment purposes - we all do it - but when you're in a debate, EVERYTHING has to be given some weight, because that is the only fair way to create a whole picture. If the number of showings really IS marginal enough to be dismissed as PIS then it won't have a significant effect on a character's average anyway.

though "everything" should be at least considered somewhat, that armbar thing does carry very little to no weight.

Originally posted by Desaad
No, he hasn't. Because a full 10% of his showings have him getting putting into an armbar by Black Panther, and a lot of the rest dont' have him doing anything that establishes him at a particularly high level.

Actually yes he has. Since his annihilation upgrade, he has trounced BRB, channeled the crunch,sealed away the oldpower and reconstructed planet skaar, matched thanos power output etc. Ur making the grave error of attempting to mathematically determine his power level by taking the mean of his performances. This gives false results. Let me use a characters lifting ability as an example since it can be numerically gauged fairly accurately. Say that in the vast majority of his comics Supes is portrayed as being capable of carrying at least 10 tons. And then in one small percentage of his comics he is portrayed as being capable of carrying only 10 pounds. On KMC, since the overwhelming majority of his comics clearly indicate he is able to lift 10 tons and upwards, and the portrayal where he is able to lift only 10 kilograms completely contradicts the characters history, then it would be labelled as PIS and hence invalidated. What u r doing however is equivalent to simply adding up the amount of tons he is shown capable of lifting in all his appearances and then dividing it by the total number of showings. U end up getting a number in between the two ranges that does not actually represent how the character is portrayed cuz he is portrayed as either being in the 10ton and above range or in the vastly lower 10 pounds range, never in between. Since annihilation (and even prior to that) surfer has been portrayed in the vast majority of his showings as being of at least herald level power. Meanwhile, that blackpanther showing puts him far far far far below that. By doing what ur doing, wed end up somewhere inbetween as the blackpanther showing would distort and and bringdown his powerlevel to something we have never actually seen him portrayed at in comics.

Consistency in portrayals is therefore key. IF the vast majority of a characters showings portray a character within a given power range, and then a small amount completely contradict that and violate established history then its PIS and not valid.

Forum rules" are ridiculous and restrictive. And, by the way, counter productive. Who decides what is PIS and what isn't? It's an excuse to dismiss anything you don't like and keep all the stuff you do. And that's fine when you're cobbling together your own continuity for entertainment purposes - we all do it - but when you're in a debate, EVERYTHING has to be given some weight, because that is the only fair way to create a whole picture. If the number of showings really IS marginal enough to be dismissed as PIS then it won't have a significant effect on a character's average anyway

Actually they arent. The forum gives a good guideline of what constitutes PIS in general an while yes there will be some debate on what constitutes it, a simple adherence to the guidelines provided will result in many clearcut examples of PIS. The forum was designed to give characters a chance to battle it out to the fullest of their abilities, something which doesnt happen always in comics do to PIS and other extenuating circumstances. Moreover when u are in a debate, u respect the rules of the arena in which u are debating. Within this arena that means excluding PIS examples and not using them to attempt to bring down a characters power level. Additionally as i illustrated above if the showing is/are low enough, it will indeed bring down the character to a level which he has never been portrayed at on panel.

that might be game, set, match.....

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
that might be game, set, match.....

For the fight?

Originally posted by Galan007
Feat-wise Surfer can match (or possibly exceed) Takion. And before people start crying about that statement: yes, I understand full well that Takion was the 'avatar of the Source' or whatever - but look at his actual feats, then compare them to Surfer's... That's all I'm saying.

can't agree with this more. 🙂

Originally posted by Naija boy
Actually yes he has. Since his annihilation upgrade, he has trounced BRB, channeled the crunch,sealed away the oldpower and reconstructed planet skaar, matched thanos power output etc. Ur making the grave error of attempting to mathematically determine his power level by taking the mean of his performances. This gives false results. Let me use a characters lifting ability as an example since it can be numerically gauged fairly accurately. Say that in the vast majority of his comics Supes is portrayed as being capable of carrying at least 10 tons. And then in one small percentage of his comics he is portrayed as being capable of carrying only 10 pounds. On KMC, since the overwhelming majority of his comics clearly indicate he is able to lift 10 tons and upwards, and the portrayal where he is able to lift only 10 kilograms completely contradicts the characters history, then it would be labelled as PIS and hence invalidated. What u r doing however is equivalent to simply adding up the amount of tons he is shown capable of lifting in all his appearances and then dividing it by the total number of showings. U end up getting a number in between the two ranges that does not actually represent how the character is portrayed cuz he is portrayed as either being in the 10ton and above range or in the vastly lower 10 pounds range, never in between. Since annihilation (and even prior to that) surfer has been portrayed in the vast majority of his showings as being of at least herald level power. Meanwhile, that blackpanther showing puts him far far far far below that. By doing what ur doing, wed end up somewhere inbetween as the blackpanther showing would distort and and bringdown his powerlevel to something we have never actually seen him portrayed at in comics.

Consistency in portrayals is therefore key. IF the vast majority of a characters showings portray a character within a given power range, and then a small amount completely contradict that and violate established history then its PIS and not valid.

Actually they arent. The forum gives a good guideline of what constitutes PIS in general an while yes there will be some debate on what constitutes it, a simple adherence to the guidelines provided will result in many clearcut examples of PIS. The forum was designed to give characters a chance to battle it out to the fullest of their abilities, something which doesnt happen always in comics do to PIS and other extenuating circumstances. Moreover when u are in a debate, u respect the rules of the arena in which u are debating. Within this arena that means excluding PIS examples and not using them to attempt to bring down a characters power level. Additionally as i illustrated above if the showing is/are low enough, it will indeed bring down the character to a level which he has never been portrayed at on panel.

You are spot on my friend... the only thing I kinda don't agree with is the Thanos part... He didn't match Thanos overall output and what he could produce.. he just matched his signature. Which is still impressive considering he's the only one that appeared able to. I just didn't take it as an output thing.