Originally posted by Q99
There's three people here with superspeed, and she's tagged him when he's going at full... he's not intangible when he's hitting.
and Batman makes Darkseid bleed..it happen in comic..u wanna use that to??no one in JSA is anywhere near his speed..at full speed..none of them can even react to him..he can just IMP them one by one..
Originally posted by Warlord
I agree...people tend to believe that, while Fernus only was a non pacifist Jonn
A non-pacifist, WEAKER Jonn.
When they went one-on-one, Jonn literally vaporised him for christ sakes.
Not to mention all the global telepathy feats (Mind raping the Joker and all the Arkham inmates at once) were specifically stated to be Jonns work.
Warlord
I agree...people tend to believe that, while Fernus only was a non pacifist Jonn
I don't believe that. J'onn *never* uses his powers to that extent.
Fernus was able to mind-lock the JLA for extended periods without paying much attention while also being more giant than J'onn ever did. J'onn has gotten tired after using his powers offensively on quite a few occasions, and pretty much always has to concentrate on at least the psychics. He was using invisibility and superspeed and telepathy and some phasing at the same time on his first attack on the team. While, least we forget, psychically containing our J'onn.
When he wasn't on fire, maybe they were equal, but I think the fire empowered him significantly. Normal J'onn may be able to do that stuff but he's never shown the energy to do all that much at once for extended periods before or since.
He used all his powers at full bore constantly without being tired in the slightest. Til Torch turned him off and he was reduced to normal martian level.
I'm not saying anything against normal J'onn, mind you, just the ability to operate with apparently *no* energy cap in the slightest nor even apparently the need to focus no matter what he did kicked him up into another league entirely.
J'onn's top tier. Fernus is a beast beyond that.
Martian Mind
Not to mention all the global telepathy feats (Mind raping the Joker and all the Arkham inmates at once) were specifically stated to be Jonns work.
At the time they didn't know there was a Fernus personality. We saw J'onn's real mind was locked up within him.
Jonn eclipsed Fernus once he was able to get close, and the fire empowering Fernus is pure speculation.
Telepathically speaking, Fernus was unable to effect Plasticmans mind. Jonn has done so on MANY occasions during Plastics time in the JLA without any issues. White martians also managed to read Plastics mind. It was Jonn who mind raped the entire planet in that saga, without showing any signs of strains over the exertion. You must also factor in, that since the Keys appearence in Grant Morrisons JLA, Jonn was ALWAYS suppressing his telepathic powers.When jonn went AWOL in infinite crisis, the DCU's entire astral plain went down the shitter. Jonn was CONSTANTLY suprressing an immensely powerful telepath and still operating at Superman level, to say he has lower endurance then Supes and Wondy is suspect to argument, any specific examples?
Then you have the other powers. White martians have one-shotted Plasticman with martian vision before, yet furnace wasn't even able to scratch him. White martians and Malefic were able to out-shapeshift Plastic as well. The only advantage a Burning martian has ever shown is an immunity to fire and incredible savagery. The one time it fought another Martian sans fire weakness, it was destroyed.
Burning Martian = pussy martian with immunity to fire and intent to kill.
Jonn= Awesomeness personified.
Originally posted by Desaad
Batman, if he knew they were all coming. He's already figured out how to take them all down. Kryptonite against Superman, Vibrating bullet against Flash, Fire against Martian Manhunter, and probably any number of things against Wonder Woman.Then again, I would imagine in a free for all situation they would all know to take him down first. When Hal Jordan took down the Justice League, it made it clear that Batman would be the most dangerous .
The writers tried to play up Batman's intelligence and ended up making him seem a bit retarded. His plan to stop the world's fastest man was to shoot him with a special bullet? The whole thing would have fallen apart if Flash just ducked his head. And the other weaknesses are kind of obvious, not to mention MM already overcame his psychological fear of fire (not that the writers ever bothered to pay attention to that).
Anyway, Manhunter can just phase down through the floor and let the other three duke it out.
Originally posted by Martian_mind
Jonn eclipsed Fernus once he was able to get close, and the fire empowering Fernus is pure speculation.Telepathically speaking, Fernus was unable to effect Plasticmans mind. Jonn has done so on MANY occasions during Plastics time in the JLA without any issues. White martians also managed to read Plastics mind. It was Jonn who mind raped the entire planet in that saga, without showing any signs of strains over the exertion. You must also factor in, that since the Keys appearence in Grant Morrisons JLA, Jonn was ALWAYS suppressing his telepathic powers.When jonn went AWOL in infinite crisis, the DCU's entire astral plain went down the shitter. Jonn was CONSTANTLY suprressing an immensely powerful telepath and still operating at Superman level, to say he has lower endurance then Supes and Wondy is suspect to argument, any specific examples?
Then you have the other powers. White martians have one-shotted Plasticman with martian vision before, yet furnace wasn't even able to scratch him. White martians and Malefic were able to out-shapeshift Plastic as well. The only advantage a Burning martian has ever shown is an immunity to fire and incredible savagery. The one time it fought another Martian sans fire weakness, it was destroyed.
Burning Martian = pussy martian with immunity to fire and intent to kill.
Jonn= Awesomeness personified.
Plastic Man was shown as far stronger than ever before- Batman was talking about his mind made him immune to telepathy period.
And we know that J'onn's personality had been locked up by Fernus- he couldn't have done those uber telepathic feats, we were shown he was out of action and it was Fernus pretending to be J'onn.
And there's still the "telepathically could contain the entire team while clearly Fernus, physically beat up the other team, used most of his powers on a level he never had before without ever needing a break," stuff.
It was said that Fernus was in control ONLY after Jonn's interaction with Luthor at the Whitehouse, everything else was Jonn.
Batman never states that it's an event that recently occured, nor have we seen any other telepath fail to mindrape Plas recently. Thus far, it's a one-off incident.
"Use his powers in ways he never has before". Right, because it's not like Jonn has used his shapeshifting to manhandle the entire league at once. Except the time he, you know, did. Fernus grew to roughly the same size as Jonn did in his battle with Antares, while also showing an inferioty to Plastics shapeshifting which no other Martian has ever showed.
I'd really like examples of Jonns supposed inferior endurance or Fernus's amazing power boosts. Fernus took time to wear down the league, Jonn has mindwiped them in less then a second.
It was said that Fernus was in control ONLY after Jonn's interaction with Luthor at the Whitehouse, everything else was Jonn.
It was at the very least after he'd lost the fire weakness. Going Burning provided a power boost, and he was under it's effect at the time.
"Use his powers in ways he never has before". Right, because it's not like Jonn has used his shapeshifting to manhandle the entire league at once. Except the time he, you know, did. Fernus grew to roughly the same size as Jonn did in his battle with Antares, while also showing an inferioty to Plastics shapeshifting which no other Martian has ever showed.
Plastic Man showed levels of power he never had before during that scene, he'd been doing a lot more than his past ever since Obsidian Age and Batman talking him up constantly. Don't confuse Plas becoming a lot more powerful with Fernus being weaker.
And I'd like an example of him using telepathy, constant superspeed, invisibility, and phasing all simultaneously in a prolonged fight before.
Or of him taking out the entire league telepathically.
I'm curious how one could look at Trial By Fire and even get the impression that that was the same level as normal J'onn.
Black Lantern J'onn was held off by Flash and GL and that form can't even die, Fernus fought Flash, Superman, Wonder Woman, and Batman without even slowing down. Fernus was doing Doomsday-level beat downs.
I'd really like examples of Jonns supposed inferior endurance or Fernus's amazing power boosts.
Lesse, J'onn was visibly tired after mind-blasting Known Man's gang in JLA: A Midsummer's Nightmare.
J'onn was pretty roughed up after holding off Asmodel in Zauriel's entry story, when Superman was holding him off just fine.
Originally posted by Q99
It was at the very least after he'd lost the fire weakness. Going Burning provided a power boost, and he was under it's effect at the time.Plastic Man showed levels of power he never had before during that scene, he'd been doing a lot more than his past ever since Obsidian Age and Batman talking him up constantly. Don't confuse Plas becoming a lot more powerful with Fernus being weaker.
And I'd like an example of him using telepathy, constant superspeed, invisibility, and phasing all simultaneously in a prolonged fight before.
Or of him taking out the entire league telepathically.
I'm curious how one could look at Trial By Fire and even get the impression that that was the same level as normal J'onn.
Black Lantern J'onn was held off by Flash and GL and that form can't even die, Fernus fought Flash, Superman, Wonder Woman, and Batman without even slowing down. Fernus was doing Doomsday-level beat downs.
Lesse, J'onn was visibly tired after mind-blasting Known Man's gang in JLA: A Midsummer's Nightmare.
J'onn was pretty roughed up after holding off Asmodel in Zauriel's entry story, when Superman was holding him off just fine.
No, It was definitively after Jonn went to the whitehouse with Luthor. Jonn himself says it, there's no edge room. The most impressive Telepathic feats of the arc were all Jonn.
Plastic has NEVER looked as good as he did in that scene in his entire history. It wasn't Plastic getting more powerful, it was a one-time upgrade. That aside, Fernus was contained by a Green Lantern construct, and held away by Faiths shield. Jonn has been able to escape Green Lantern constructs before, and beend depicted as capable of phasing through Wonder Womans lasso pre-upgrade, So phasing is another area where Jonn is Fernus's superior.
Jonn fought virtually every supervillian on earth and was curbstomping them until they used fire in Salvation run. After that, he was locked in a flaming cage for WEEKS, before being tranqued with flaming darts. He then had a FLAMING ****ING SPEAR put through his chest, and proceeded to mindrape an entire room of supervillains, one of whom was Gorilla Grodd for christ sakes. He then got his chest ripped open, and still knocked Superman screaming from the sky with telepathy. Fernus never showed any comparable telepathic feats.
Lets see. Jonn fought 3 White Martians in rapid succession, using phasing, eyebeams,telepathy ,invisibilty and Superspeed in his recent mini. He was blitzed by Flash and chepshotted by Orion in his old ongoing and then still manhandled the league via shapeshifting. Fernus is weaker then a Jonn who's taken off the kiddy gloves, the fact that Jonn tore his ass apart on a molecular level says as much. I don't understand how anyone with knowledge of Jonn's capabilities could say otherwise.
Oh, and with the Zauriel thing, reread the ****ing book. Jonn faced Asmodel on his own for FAR longer then Superman.