Originally posted by NemeBro
Yeah...Pain has never shown to be able to be nearly as fast as two people who are stronger than people that effortlessly block machine-gun fire and dodge it.
I am too lazy to explain why else either would solo, but that is all I need.
No. You need to explain exact reasons why they would win, let alone solo. This is a Verses thread after all. I mean you can say they can solo but it means nothing if you cant prove it or give reasons as to why.
High-end ninja are incredibly fast. Someone of jonin or higher level can move so fast even superhumans like genin and chunin nin have trouble following them, and those in turn move fast enough that normal people can't see them blink around.
I've seen some people put them at several-hundred mph which seems quite reasonable to me (and we know the people with gates can get past mach 1, judging by the shockwaves).
In terms of travel speed I believe Pain may even have more, and even if Cloud and Sephie had a speed advantage I doubt it's great enough to get to Pain before he gravity pushes them.
Originally posted by NemeBro
I did.Sephiroth and Cloud are far too fast, and will tear the bodies to pieces before Pain can use any of his big attacks, also, using Chibaku Tensei from close range would be stupid.
Guy above me is right. Jounin level ninja and higher are extremely fast in travel speed. Also, Pein wouldn't use chibaku at close range. He's an experienced ninja that knows the extent of his powers. He's not some moron. If he was do you honestly think we would be in akatsuki?
Pein can move as fast, if not fast than Cloud in terms of travel speed. Sephiroth might be faster, but it's hard to determine since we haven't seen any ninja move as fast as possible in open areas. I also wouldn't doubt if Pein can open the gates, seeing as how kakashi is capable and Pein is way above kakashi's level. Though, this is all theoretical.
I digress.
Either way, Sephiroth and Cloud wont have an easy time with this battle. As much as I love FF7, I think oyu're being bias stating that Pein doesn't stand a chance against the two. I also recall you stating either of them could solo. I call bs on that one.
NemeBro is right people way below Cloud and Sephiroth effortlessly dodge and block machine-gun fire even Nomura in the ultimania omega says Cloud was outmatched by Sephiroth so he is even faster than Cloud who is already way faster than Pein o and Sephiroth can Teleport too.
Cloud and Sephiroth can cut throught steel and buildings like it was butter:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6ZaSipHuO4&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2uZztontBQs&feature=related
They have materia they can cast stop, death, Thundaga, firaga, Ultima etc man and the fact is that they don't need to use it they kill Pein before he get's the chance to do anything you all say that Pein is fast but how fast? has he dodge machine-guns? do you have any feat that gives him speed anywere near Cloud and Sephiroth?
As NemeBro said Either of them can solo.
Originally posted by Tobia arronax
you all say that Pein is fast but how fast? has he dodge machine-guns? do you have any feat that gives him speed anywere near Cloud and Sephiroth?
In terms of travel speed, ninja have definitely shown enough speed that most people couldn't hope to target them with a machine gun.
It's Sasuke, not Pain, but take a look at These two pages. That's, what, a hundred feet travelled in an eyeblink, before someone with superspeed could even react?
And as for Pain, he lept this high in a single jump, that far outdoes the leaping around on Shinra tower done in AC or the Bahamaut attack Cloud did, by several times.
Sephiroth and Cloud do not show movement speed that high. Reflexive speed they're impressive in blocking rapid fire bullets, but in terms of distance travelled I do not think they ever demonstrated as much as that, let alone higher.
Originally posted by Q99
In terms of travel speed, ninja have definitely shown enough speed that most people couldn't hope to target them with a machine gun.
Travel speed isn't the same as combat speed and in that note Sephiroth can teleport that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>travel speed
It's Sasuke, not Pain, but take a look at These two pages. That's, what, a hundred feet travelled in an eyeblink, before someone with superspeed could even react?
nop more like 30 feet and to be able to do that it would require for him to be faster than the eye can see like 100m/s or being generous mach 1 still nowhere near people like Cloud and Sephiroth who shit on machine guns that have muzzle velocity of mach 3 to mach 5 if not more.
And as for Pain, he lept this high in a single jump, that far outdoes the leaping around on Shinra tower done in AC or the Bahamaut attack Cloud did, by several times.
Yeah and that proves he can keep up with cloud how?
Sephiroth and Cloud do not show movement speed that high. Reflexive speed they're impressive in blocking rapid fire bullets, but in terms of distance travelled I do not think they ever demonstrated as much as that, let alone higher.
Again travel speed isn't the same as combat speed and Pein isn't near having the speed Cloud and Sephiroth have and the last can teleport so no Pein isn't tagging them at all and the fact of giving them materia is even worse because Omnislash, Octoslash or blade beams are enough here.
Originally posted by Tobia arronax
Travel speed isn't the same as combat speed and in that note Sephiroth can teleport that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>travel speed
When does Sephiroth teleport? I remember Loz doing short-range 'ports, but that's it.
nop more like 30 feet and to be able to do that it would require for him to be faster than the eye can see like 100m/s or being generous mach 1 still nowhere near people like Cloud and Sephiroth who shit on machine guns that have muzzle velocity of mach 3 to mach 5 if not more.
They put a sword in front of a bullet, they don't outrun it.
Blocking a bullet does not require one be near the speed of a bullet oneself, just fast enough to interpose an object, which requires a fraction of the speed since in the time the bullet moves, say, 10 feet, they need to move their sword 1, so only 1/10th of the bullet's speed is needed for a successful intercept in that case.
Yeah and that proves he can keep up with cloud how?
It's a lot bigger than Cloud's jumps. A jump's height is determined by it's speed. Pain > Cloud in travel speed.
Again travel speed isn't the same as combat speed
With travel speed, he can blast them all from a distance no prob and win.
Not that combat speed is necessarily all that different, ninja are seen reacting, blocking, and dodging mach-speed attacks. And in some cases whole tons of not-quite-that-fast-but-still-really-fast attacks (like Sasuke vs Itachi's shuriken barrage, where they don't just block the opposing shuriken but actually intercept them in mid-air with their own. These shuriken also being thrown by super-fast people so without a doubt going pretty high speed themselves).
so no Pein isn't tagging them at all
Remember, Pain's attack can extend outwards from him in a sphere. So even if they can beat him with swords it doesn't matter, he can send them flying literally miles with enough force to break every bone in their bodies ala what he did with the frogs.
Originally posted by Q99
[B]When does Sephiroth teleport? I remember Loz doing short-range 'ports, but that's it.
Sephiroth teleports in CC, during his fight with Zack.
He teleports in front of the party at the Temple of the Ancients, in the room with Meteor on the wall.
And after killing the clones at the Northern Crater, he teleports behind the party and knocks them down.
They put a sword in front of a bullet, they don't outrun it.Blocking a bullet does not require one be near the speed of a bullet oneself, just fast enough to interpose an object, which requires a fraction of the speed since in the time the bullet moves, say, 10 feet, they need to move their sword 1, so only 1/10th of the bullet's speed is needed for a successful intercept in that case.
you have to be kidding me to be able to react to the bullet you need to have the same speed if not more so tell me if someone shoots a you are you telling me you can block it?
not only that they are reacting to the bullets after they were fired, not dodging the aim.
YouTube video
1:55-2:47
(VR-Training)
Zack blocks bullets and easily defeats armed soldiers. He also avoids rockets and makes a long jump. It's worth noting that he is just a 2nd Class SOLDIER while Angeal is a 1st Class.
3:44-4:40
Sephiroth beats Zack one-handed and was about to stab (which he would survive since this is still a VR-Training simulation) until Angeal came and stopped him. Angeal must be pretty fast to have stopped the action.
that is Zack someone way inferior to Cloud and Sephiroth and he is not only blocking the bullets but he si dodging them too not to mention he dodges rockets too and all of this while he is moving forward.
It's a lot bigger than Cloud's jumps. A jump's height is determined by it's speed. Pain > Cloud in travel speed.
Yeah and still doesn't prove he can keep up with cloud or react to his attacks because travel speed isn't the same as combat speed.
With travel speed, he can blast them all from a distance no prob and win.Not that combat speed is necessarily all that different, ninja are seen reacting, blocking, and dodging mach-speed attacks. And in some cases whole tons of not-quite-that-fast-but-still-really-fast attacks (like Sasuke vs Itachi's shuriken barrage, where they don't just block the opposing shuriken but actually intercept them in mid-air with their own. These shuriken also being thrown by super-fast people so without a doubt going pretty high speed themselves).
not getting the point bring proof of him being able to react to them because to be able to use shinra tensei he has to be faster than them and which are those mach speed attacks you are talking about care to bring them?
Remember, Pain's attack can extend outwards from him in a sphere. So even if they can beat him with swords it doesn't matter, he can send them flying literally miles with enough force to break every bone in their bodies ala what he did with the frogs.
let asside that they are already faster than him but they can just use stop, Ultima, Thundaga, firaga, blade beams o and Sephiroth has telekinesis too so he can hold Pein without a problem, so either Cloud or Sephiroth can wins this alone.
And
YouTube video
2:10-5:10
This fight scene has been posted a lot here. In this scene Seph, Genesis, and Angeal are 2nd Class (this is a flashback). If you have seen the parts mentioned in the above videos, a 2nd Class SOLDIER is a bullet-timer. Sephiroth is able to deal with Genesis and Angeal at once. He even tanks fire magic and cuts through steel very easily (even from a distance).
2nd Class SOLDIER are bullet-timers and Sephiroth and cloud are way above them.
Yea, I know *all* of that.
But ninja have pretty insanely fast reactions too- here we see Sasuke and Itachi each tracking and intercepting *hundreds* of shuriken, without missing one, and all at high speed.
Does Pain have the reaction speed to react to Sephiroth's and Cloud's *bodies* coming at him? Yes, no question. Does Pain have a force attack that'll hit them despite their reactions due to it's wide area? Again, yes, no question.
It's not like having moderately higher reaction time is a win if your opponent still has a means to use an undodgeable attack first. They come at Pain (or yes, teleport. He can see all around him after all, though that is definitely the pair's best chance. No way Cloud gets into HtH by running or jumping), they get gravity blasted into next week, good game, Pain wins.
not getting the point bring proof of him being able to react to them because to be able to use shinra tensei he has to be faster than them and which are those mach speed attacks you are talking about care to bring them?
Sasori uses iron-sand spears that make clear shockwaves and Chiyo's able to react to them and defend.
Also Lee and Guy are able to go sonic themselves with the gates off.
Originally posted by Q99
[B]Yea, I know *all* of that.But ninja have pretty insanely fast reactions too- here we see Sasuke and Itachi each tracking and intercepting *hundreds* of shuriken, without missing one, and all at high speed.
You know there is a calc for this:
http://forums.narutofan.com/showpost.php?p=31240184&postcount=1111
still pretty far of from dodgin/blocking machine guns, Rockets , grenades etc.
Does Pain have the reaction speed to react to Sephiroth's and Cloud's *bodies* coming at him? Yes, no question.
So far you haven't prove he can, and you are still forgetting the fact that either of them can use stop and Sephiroth use his TK and he is ****.
Does Pain have a force attack that'll hit them despite their reactions due to it's wide area? Again, yes, no question.
Yes he has the attack but does he have the reaction speed to do it before he get's killed?.. no and again so far you haven't prove he can o they can use stop and TK again.
It's not like having moderately higher reaction time is a win if your opponent still has a means to use an undodgeable attack first. They come at Pain (or yes, teleport. He can see all around him after all, though that is definitely the pair's best chance. No way Cloud gets into HtH by running or jumping), they get gravity blasted into next week, good game, Pain wins.
Again either of them alone can beat Pein Cloud uses stop he is **** or Sephiroth uses his Telekinesis and his **** too and then they procede to Omnislash, Octoslash or Blade Beam him without problems.
Combat speed and travel speed are both trumped if they're hit with Shinra/ Chibiki tensei since it is a gravity based attack. Also, magic casting would at least have to be twice as fast by both Seph. And Cloud if they even want to try and get them past Ghost Realm.
Also, ninja, even chuunin level have demonstrated being able to deflect/ intercept high speed projectiles.
Pein, being even higher level than chuunin, obviously would have no problem doing the same and at more impressive speeds.
Your argument saying that Pein would have to be able to dodge bullets to demonstrate combat speed capable of that of Cloud's and Sephi's is irrelivent seeing as how they dont swing their swords at gunfire speed (being mach 1+).
Also, if hit by shinra tensei it would make it that much easier to just kill whoever is hit by it and since their bodies are matter they're effected by gravity.
You also forget that even a fool can see if he wont win a battle, let alone Pein. If it came to that he could end it in a stalemate, taking their souls and killing himself.
Originally posted by Omnislash Kid
Combat speed and travel speed are both trumped if they're hit with Shinra/ Chibiki tensei since it is a gravity based attack. Also, magic casting would at least have to be twice as fast by both Seph. And Cloud if they even want to try and get them past Ghost Realm.
To cast a spell they only need to raise their hand and in Sephiroth's case to use his Telekinesis he doesn't even need to raize his hand at all so no Pein isn't doing nothing against that.
Also, ninja, even chuunin level have demonstrated being able to deflect/ intercept high speed projectiles.Pein, being even higher level than chuunin, obviously would have no problem doing the same and at more impressive speeds.
Ninja lvls don't mean anything Naruto is a genin and he kicks Kakashi (jounin), Neji (jounin), Guy (jounin), Tsunade (hokage) ass so your argument is usseles.
Your argument saying that Pein would have to be able to dodge bullets to demonstrate combat speed capable of that of Cloud's and Sephi's is irrelivent seeing as how they dont swing their swords at gunfire speed (being mach 1+).
You don't say they block all the bullets swinging their blades meaning they swing them at gunfire speed so yeah try again and you said your self Pein hasn't shown combat speed capable of that of Cloud's and Sephiroth's so again he is going to get stop/TK and then Omnislash, Octoslash or Blade beam without problems.
Also, if hit by shinra tensei it would make it that much easier to just kill whoever is hit by it and since their bodies are matter they're effected by gravity.
You also forget that even a fool can see if he wont win a battle, let alone Pein. If it came to that he could end it in a stalemate, taking their souls and killing himself.
Again he is not getting the chance of use any of those he is going to get Stop/TK and then Omnislash, Octoslash or Blade beam without problems.
Originally posted by Tobia arronax
To cast a spell they only need to raise their hand and in Sephiroth's case to use his Telekinesis he doesn't even need to raize his hand at all so no Pein isn't doing nothing against that.Ninja lvls don't mean anything Naruto is a genin and he kicks Kakashi (jounin), Neji (jounin), Guy (jounin), Tsunade (hokage) ass so your argument is usseles.
You don't say they block all the bullets swinging their blades meaning they swing them at gunfire speed so yeah try again and you said your self Pein hasn't shown combat speed capable of that of Cloud's and Sephiroth's so again he is going to get stop/TK and then Omnislash, Octoslash or Blade beam without problems.
Again he is not getting the chance of use any of those he is going to get Stop/TK and then Omnislash, Octoslash or Blade beam without problems.
Please, elaborate on why you think he wouldn't be able to use ANY of his abilities. I mean it's not like there's 5 other guys they have to worry about.
Also, they dont have to move as fast as the bullets. The reaction time they need is the distance between them and the bullet. Also, in cutscenes most of the bullets they dodge. They might deflect a few of them but not all. Sephiroth nor Cloud have shown to deflect full machine gun rounds shot at them. Also also haven't shown the combat speed necessary to move as fast as them.
In AC Cloud's classes saved him from getting shot in the face from Yazoo.
Also, you logic with Naruto still being genin is retarded considering at the time he was in the chunin exams he didn't make it. You even comparing him to genin level shows how much of a retard you are. Skill > Ranking. They only reason why he's not past genin level is because he was to busy with other things, in case you haven't had the time to read the manga. Hell, he's killed kage level opponents. You're argument is spite and invalid.
As far as telekinesis goes, he would have to concentrate for that, and I doubt that even if he manages to pull it off it will do little harm to Pein.
Originally posted by Omnislash Kid
Please, elaborate on why you think he wouldn't be able to use ANY of his abilities. I mean it's not like there's 5 other guys they have to worry about.
...man do you have problems reading? higher combat/reaction speed, stop and TK , and he isn't doing nothing then he get's killed all of his bodies.
Also, they dont have to move as fast as the bullets. The reaction time they need is the distance between them and the bullet. Also, in cutscenes most of the bullets they dodge. They might deflect a few of them but not all. Sephiroth nor Cloud have shown to deflect full machine gun rounds shot at them. Also also haven't shown the combat speed necessary to move as fast as them.
And again you don't read
1:55-2:47
(VR-Training)
Zack blocks bullets and easily defeats armed soldiers. He also avoids rockets and makes a long jump. It's worth noting that he is just a 2nd Class SOLDIER while Angeal is a 1st Class.
3:44-4:40
Sephiroth beats Zack one-handed and was about to stab (which he would survive since this is still a VR-Training simulation) until Angeal came and stopped him. Angeal must be pretty fast to have stopped the action.
that is Zack someone way inferior to Cloud and Sephiroth and he is not only blocking the bullets but he si dodging them too not to mention he dodges rockets too and all of this while he is moving forward.
2:10-5:10
This fight scene has been posted a lot here. In this scene Seph, Genesis, and Angeal are 2nd Class (this is a flashback). If you have seen the parts mentioned in the above videos, a 2nd Class SOLDIER is a bullet-timer. Sephiroth is able to deal with Genesis and Angeal at once. He even tanks fire magic and cuts through steel very easily (even from a distance).
2nd Class SOLDIER are bullet-timers and Sephiroth and cloud are way above them.
And Sephiroth can Teleport too don't forget that.
Also, you logic with Naruto still being genin is retarded considering at the time he was in the chunin exams he didn't make it. You even comparing him to genin level shows how much of a retard you are. Skill > Ranking. They only reason why he's not past genin level is because he was to busy with other things, in case you haven't had the time to read the manga. Hell, he's killed kage level opponents. You're argument is spite and invalid.
Man the retarded one is you using ninja ranks and saying "high speed proyectiles" but you don't know how fast they are do you?..if you do bring proof of how fast they are because bullets and rockets are mach 3 to 5.
And the logic of Naruto being a genin aplies to your dumb argument.
As far as telekinesis goes, he would have to concentrate for that, and I doubt that even if he manages to pull it off it will do little harm to Pein.
lol Sephiroth hold all of Cloud's party with ease without even trying and again you don't seem to read at all he holds him wiht his TK and then he kills him with his Balde Beam or Octoslash the same goes for Cloud he uses stop and Omnislash.
Are you comparing a rocket shot from an RPG to a bullet? That's pretty dumb.
Also, shuriken and kunai have been described as being thrown fast than the eye can see. Sasuke was able to hardly see senbon being thrown at him and Naruto by Haku going as fast as the speed of light. Sasuke, being a genin was able to still keep up with him, but had to be saved by Naruto (after the coma the sentence is irrelevant since he was an inexperienced ninja and has nothing to do with the point I'm trying to get across)
What part of him being able to revive his bodies do you not understand? What part of gravitational manipulation do you not understand. Tell me, how do you possibly think they are going to fight against of it?
Also, octoslash and omnislash are nowhere near the speed of bullets. So you putting
And I read all of what you said just fine. It's just that your comprehension skills are lacking.
Sephiroth was only fighting Cloud so he was able to concentrate. Imagine him fighting a 3 guys, one of whom can crush his like you or me being able to crush a tin can.
Also, the cutscene with Zack deflecting the bullets, he deflected like 4 of them. The rest missed. Ninja train to be dead accurate. Not like that matters since God realm uses gravity manipulation. So please, explain how they're going to f****** dodge that.
Originally posted by Omnislash Kid
Are you comparing a rocket shot from an RPG to a bullet? That's pretty dumb.
so dumb you don't eve see he dodge rockets in the video....
Also, shuriken and kunai have been described as being thrown fast than the eye can see.
yeah you know how fast that is right?...100 m/s
Sasuke was able to hardly see senbon being thrown at him and Naruto by Haku going as fast as the speed of light . Sasuke, being a genin was able to still keep up with him, but had to be saved by Naruto (after the coma the sentence is irrelevant since he was an inexperienced ninja and has nothing to do with the point I'm trying to get across)
hahahahahaha no man just no hahahahaha.
What part of him being able to revive his bodies do you not understand? What part of gravitational manipulation do you not understand. Tell me, how do you possibly think they are going to fight against of it?
And what part of being stop and stop wiht TK and then killed don't you understand?
Also, octoslash and omnislash are nowhere near the speed of bullets. So you puttingAnd I read all of what you said just fine. It's just that comprehension skills are lacking. .
Nop that is you again.
Sephiroth was only fighting Cloud so he was able to concentrate. Imagine him fighting a 3 guys, one of whom can crush his like you or me being able to crush a tin can.
...please have you even played FF7 Sephiroth hold all of Cloud's party in the crater in the final battle with ease not in AC please if you don't know wtf are talking about then please go away.
Also, the cutscene with Zack deflecting the bullets, he deflected like 4 of them. The rest missed. Ninja train to be dead accurate. Not like that matters since God realm uses gravity manipulation. So please, explain how they're going to f****** dodge that.
Again please try to read the previous posts so you can understand.
Yes I've played FF VII. Why the hell would I make a thread about these 3 fighting if I didn't?
Also, a meteor is a different type of attack than gravity.
And yes, Haku going the speed of light is said. Also, when traveling through the mirrors he see's things in slow motion.
Do YOU read or watch Naruto?
It's easy to detect that the calculations above are fallible. For one, it's main basis is that the shurikens has the mean velocity of crossbow arrows.
Further Sasuke was reacting to shock-waves as a kid.