Originally posted by Enyalus
genetically deficient
No such thing, unless someone actually removed part of your genome.
Originally posted by Enyalus
My sister was diagnosed with having ADHD (in addition to dyslexia, which I'm not disputing.) Yes, she struggles in math and language arts/English. My opinion on the English thing though, is that she struggles because she doesn't like it. It's not fun for her. So she doesn't try. Not because she has ADHD and can't concentrate. She won't concentrate. I say this convincingly because although she uses her diagnosis with ADHD as an excuse for why she can't focus on her school work, I've seen her do things like sit in my floor for four hours straight playing Grand Theft Auto. I am betting that anyone who has been diagnosed with ADHD here, or who knows someone who has been diagnosed with it, has similar stories. If they aren't interested, they can't pay attention. But damn, if its entertaining and fun, they can do it all day just like any other normal kid. To me, that's a discipline problem. Not a medical one.
Do you really consider your sister to be a statistically meaningful sample size?
Originally posted by Enyalus
But afterall, from your own article, "neuroimaging is a valuable research tool in the study of ADHD, but currently it is not useful for making a diagnosis of ADHD in a clinical practice or in predicting treatment response." Why is that?
Because people aren't going to blow $1000 on every diagnosis. If you can build a cheap easy to use fMRI machine I'm certain that the medical and psychological communities would build a statue for you.
Originally posted by Enyalus
Going from some of those numbers, they basically find that about 10% of children are diagnosed with ADHD. I think they listed the average 'lifetime childhood diagnosis of ADHD' as 7.8%, but in a lot of the studies they cited it was about 10%.They go on to say that ADHD is primarily a genetic disorder. My first response to that is, really? Are you, inimalist, as an obviously well educated individual, going to tell me that 10% of the population of our children are genetically deficient? That's not only a huge number, it strains credulity.
nobody would call adhd a genetic deficency
I have type 1 diabetes, do you consider me a genetic defect? My disorder is far more complicating to one's life than adhd is....
Originally posted by Enyalus
In an attempt to cover their bases (I guess?) they acknowledge that there are other causes of ADHD aside from genetic, which include neurobiological. This, to me, is the only thing that makes sense - if you're dealing with a mental/cognitive issue like ADHD, of course it's neurological in nature.
yes, and neurobiology is hugely influenced by genetics. It is also influenced by environment, however, as the twin studies above indicate, similar environments seems to play no role at all in whether twins boths get adhd.
Now, you say that is what you would expect with cognitive issues, and you would be correct. The back and forth (which the Burt article I linked is the last of) was about a study that showed adhd was the only one of many psychiatric issues for which environment was not a contributing factor for. So, for depression, you are correct, environment is huge, but not in the case of adhd.
And while this one article does say that there are other causes, taken with much of the other literature on the matter, it seems that genetics are the most, and possibly the only, significant factor.
Originally posted by Enyalus
They then go on to say that children with ADHD show some minor problems with their cognitive processes (Let's be honest, the medical jargon of "neurocognitive processes that maintain an appropriate problem solving set to attain a future goal" is basically what I've just said - a minor problem in their cognitive ability). Nevertheless, the article admits that not all children who're diagnosed with ADHD have this issue at all...this begs the question, why were they diagnosed with ADHD when they do not display the main...problem....that having ADHD manifests?Two real problems I had with the article were that it kept talking about the 'nine symptoms' of ADHD, but I could not find where it listed them. I'm positive I didn't miss them. It must be in another article.
http://www.ldawe.ca/DSM_IV.html
the 9 symptoms are the listed diagnostic criteria
To answer the first part, it is because, like all things in abnormal psychology, adhd has a constilation of symptoms existing on a continuum. Some people will have some of the 9 symptoms to great degrees, others much less. Therefore, hyperactivity specifically, or the specific ability to be attentive to one thing are themselves usefull for diagnosis, but all behaviour needs to be evaluated more hollistically.
Originally posted by Enyalus
Second is just something I had to point out, that I found funny for some reason. "The prevalence of mood disorders in patients with ADHD is more controversial, with studies showing from 0 to 33% of patients with ADHD meeting criteria for a depressive disorder."0 to 33 percent? Seriously? That's a pretty big net. And it's not the only thing like that in there. There's a 4 to 30% deal on page 13, too.
this means there are a series of studies that put the co-occurance of adhd and depression at different rates, some at high levels, others at low levels. This is the nature of science. As the problem is understood in a more robust way, the gap will shrink and we will have a much better idea.
however, the article says it is controversial and it really doesn't relate to whether adhd is just "daydreaming", what is your point? slander?
Originally posted by Enyalus
My sister was diagnosed with having ADHD (in addition to dyslexia, which I'm not disputing.) Yes, she struggles in math and language arts/English. My opinion on the English thing though, is that she struggles because she doesn't like it. It's not fun for her. So she doesn't try. Not because she has ADHD and can't concentrate. She won't concentrate. I say this convincingly because although she uses her diagnosis with ADHD as an excuse for why she can't focus on her school work,
none of that is incongruent with your sister also having adhd or with adhd being a real thing.
maybe she doesn't try hard enough?
Originally posted by Enyalus
I've seen her do things like sit in my floor for four hours straight playing Grand Theft Auto. I am betting that anyone who has been diagnosed with ADHD here, or who knows someone who has been diagnosed with it, has similar stories. If they aren't interested, they can't pay attention. But damn, if its entertaining and fun, they can do it all day just like any other normal kid.
video games are great for people with adhd because they give nearly constant gratification for behaviour, they reqire to be constantly doing new things. GTA would be a great time for people with adhd.
I think you just have a very limited idea of what adhd means...
Originally posted by Enyalus
To me, that's a discipline problem. Not a medical one.
/sigh
the studies i linked also show that adhd rates are pretty much uniform worldwide and in many cultures, including those where corporal punishment is much more common.
harsh punishment does not help people with adhd, in fact, it is likely that it might drive them to further criminal behaviour
Originally posted by Enyalus
I mean, they're having middle school counselors diagnose these children with this supposed disease.
irrelevant. the government doesn't believe in global warming either, does that mean it doesn't exist?
medical health is still poorly understood by most sectors of the beuracracy, that schools dont get it either is not surprising.
also, i don't think any middle school counselors are doing that
Originally posted by Enyalus
If it's a valid disease and genetic and neurological in nature, why not have it be diagnosed with a CAT scan or MRI or such? But afterall, from your own article, "neuroimaging is a valuable research tool in the study of ADHD, but currently it is not useful for making a diagnosis of ADHD in a clinical practice or in predicting treatment response." Why is that?
Aside from what sym pointed out, neuroimaging requires paitents to stay still for an extended period of time. movement of millimeters can throw off the entire image.
needless to say, young children who have attentional problems are not the best candidates for this. However, leaps are being made:
Utility of functional MRI in pediatric neurology
Freilich ER, Gaillard WD.
Current Neurology and Neuroscience Reports, 2010 Jan;10(1):40-6.
Abstract
Functional MRI (fMRI), a tool increasingly used to study cognitive function, is also an important tool for understanding not only normal development in healthy children, but also abnormal development, as seen in children with epilepsy, attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder, and autism. Since its inception almost 15 years ago, fMRI has seen an explosion in its use and applications in the adult literature. However, only recently has it found a home in pediatric neurology. New adaptations in study design and technologic advances, especially the study of resting state functional connectivity as well as the use of passive task design in sedated children, have increased the utility of functional imaging in pediatrics to help us gain understanding into the developing brain at work. This article reviews the background of fMRI in pediatrics and highlights the most recent literature and clinical applications.
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
No such thing, unless someone actually removed part of your genome.
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Do you really consider your sister to be a statistically meaningful sample size?
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Because people aren't going to blow $1000 on every diagnosis. If you can build a cheap easy to use fMRI machine I'm certain that the medical and psychological communities would build a statue for you.
That article inimalist cited said that treatment and diagnosis is based on empirical evidence. Exactly what empirical evidence do you have without hard scientific tests?
Originally posted by Enyalus
Do you really mean to tell me you haven't encountered similar situations, where someone you know has been diagnosed with this supposed 'disease' and yet displays perfectly normal behavior when they want to, such as in my example?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias
Originally posted by Enyalus
That's how most other diseases are diagnosed. With thousands of dollars worth of tests. Bardock42's cancer example, for instance. Otherwise, the person doing the diagnosis is engaging in speculation with zero hard evidence.That article inimalist cited said that treatment and diagnosis is based on empirical evidence. Exactly what empirical evidence do you have without hard scientific tests?
apples to oranges though
cancer is terminal and completely invasive to ones life. It is not something your child has and you wish they would just behanve goddamnit
further, most practicing doctors have a poor grasp of mental health problems, which means you need to see a specialist, which can take months. There aren't "urgent care" cnetres you can go to for help.
There is plenty of behavioural evidence, especially when diagnosed by specialists. Your own logic is backward as well. All of the fMRI work is based on diagnoses made by behavioural observation. The fact that fMRI is useful at all is a confirmation that the behavioural diagnosis is working
Originally posted by Enyalus
My meaning should have been obvious, and that wasn't it.
I must say I really don't know what "genetic deficiency" is supposed to mean outside of eugenics or some weird process of excessing DNA.
Originally posted by Enyalus
Do you really mean to tell me you haven't encountered similar situations, where someone you know has been diagnosed with this supposed 'disease' and yet displays perfectly normal behavior when they want to, such as in my example?
Yes. I've been diagnosed ADHD, OCD, Aspegers and if I really want to I can act perfectly normal. But doing so usually makes me miserable and it's actually pretty exhausting.
Originally posted by Enyalus
That's how most other diseases are diagnosed. With thousands of dollars worth of tests.
No, they're not. Unless you go to Princeton Plainsborough.
Originally posted by Enyalus
That article inimalist cited said that treatment and diagnosis is based on empirical evidence. Exactly what empirical evidence do you have without hard scientific tests?
Observed behavior is empirical evidence.
Originally posted by inimalist
nobody would call adhd a genetic deficencyI have type 1 diabetes, do you consider me a genetic defect? My disorder is far more complicating to one's life than adhd is....
If so, there's not really anything that I can say. We'd have to agree to disagree, because I simply am not buying that. I feel that the vast majority of these children are being misdiagnosed and given powerful drugs they do not need, as well as being made to feel inferior when there is in all probability nothing wrong with them.
Originally posted by inimalist
And while this one article does say that there are other causes, taken with much of the other literature on the matter, it seems that genetics are the most, and possibly the only, significant factor.
Originally posted by inimalist
http://www.ldawe.ca/DSM_IV.htmlthe 9 symptoms are the listed diagnostic criteria
To answer the first part, it is because, like all things in abnormal psychology, adhd has a constilation of symptoms existing on a continuum. Some people will have some of the 9 symptoms to great degrees, others much less. Therefore, hyperactivity specifically, or the specific ability to be attentive to one thing are themselves usefull for diagnosis, but all behaviour needs to be evaluated more hollistically.
Okay. Those symptoms, most things listed under inattention, hyperactivity and impulsivity, just seem like things any normal child would have issues with. Children are very high-energy, usually bouncing around, running everywhere and doing one thing now, another thing a few minutes later. IMO, that's completely normal. Par example:
"often fails to give close attention to details or makes careless mistakes in schoolwork, work, or other activities" - this happens frequently, with children and adults (at work for instance) if you simply don't enjoy what you are doing. If its boring to you or monotonous, you tune it out. Normal to me. You called it the GTA example you responded to.
"often does not follow through on instructions and fails to finish schoolwork, chores, or duties in the workplace" - this is basic procrastination. Don't we ALL suffer from this? I swear, I haven't met anyone in grad school who doesn't procrastinate their ass off (graduate students have to be the biggest procrastinators in the world.) How is this a symptom to a disease that bears drug prescriptions?
"often avoids, dislikes, or is reluctant to engage in tasks that require sustained mental effort (such as schoolwork or homework)" - How many of us disliked going to school or at least sitting down and doing homework? I would hope all of us. I know I had better shit to do. Wanted to go watch TV or play some Sega Genesis, not concentrate on work.
The hyperactivity section is very....unbelievable to me. Fidgeting and such? Kids should have a lot of energy. If they're being made to sit still in their desks for a few hours at a time, then why shouldn't they be fidgeting? I again don't see anything wrong with this, and it seems like the behavior of a perfectly normal child. The real kicker is the 'often talks excessively.' Holy shit. Every middle and high school girl ever suffers from this symptom.
"often blurts out answers to questions before they have been completed" - Like you pointed out, its typical for a child to want to be gratified. That they're excited about knowing an answer, so excited that they blurt it out....there's something wrong with that?
And before you send me another link to 'confirmation bias', please know that it's not confirmation bias, it's empirical evidence. Most children behave this way based upon observation. It's natural. It's not a disease.
Originally posted by inimalist
however, the article says it is controversial and it really doesn't relate to whether adhd is just "daydreaming", what is your point? slander?
Originally posted by inimalist
maybe she doesn't try hard enough?
Originally posted by inimalist
video games are great for people with adhd because they give nearly constant gratification for behaviour, they reqire to be constantly doing new things. GTA would be a great time for people with adhd.
It seems to me that, based upon that opinion, if teachers and curriculum were based around positively reinforcing children's self-image and rewarding them for their work, ADHD wouldn't be a problem and in most cases wouldn't be diagnosed at all. In that case, I would say that the problem does not lie with the child or any perceived disease they might have, but how people and adults around them interact with them.
Originally posted by inimalist
I think you just have a very limited idea of what adhd means...
Originally posted by inimalist
irrelevant. the government doesn't believe in global warming either, does that mean it doesn't exist?
Originally posted by inimalist
Aside from what sym pointed out, neuroimaging requires paitents to stay still for an extended period of time. movement of millimeters can throw off the entire image.needless to say, young children who have attentional problems are not the best candidates for this. However, leaps are being made:
Utility of functional MRI in pediatric neurology
Freilich ER, Gaillard WD.
Current Neurology and Neuroscience Reports, 2010 Jan;10(1):40-6.
Abstract
Functional MRI (fMRI), a tool increasingly used to study cognitive function, is also an important tool for understanding not only normal development in healthy children, but also abnormal development, as seen in children with epilepsy, attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder, and autism. Since its inception almost 15 years ago, fMRI has seen an explosion in its use and applications in the adult literature. However, only recently has it found a home in pediatric neurology. New adaptations in study design and technologic advances, especially the study of resting state functional connectivity as well as the use of passive task design in sedated children, have increased the utility of functional imaging in pediatrics to help us gain understanding into the developing brain at work. This article reviews the background of fMRI in pediatrics and highlights the most recent literature and clinical applications.
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Yes. I've been diagnosed ADHD, OCD, Aspegers and if I really want to I can act perfectly normal. But doing so usually makes me miserable and it's actually pretty exhausting.
Behaving 'normally' takes a lot of effort. For everyone, I'm sure. It doesn't mean there's something wrong with that.
Originally posted by Enyalus
Good to know.
/facepalm
most of your complaints are actually answered on the DSM symptom page I linked to, or are summed up by the fact that neuroimaging is only successful because it confirms that behavioural evidence is successful, were the behavioural methods not correct, fMRI would have found no relative differences between adhd subjects and control.
I'm sorry this doesn't coform to the "Kick in the ass" thesis, but hey, scientists are dishonest people who conspire with eachother to doctor evidnce in a non-competitive way in order to fail to uncover the truth, as your enlightening thoughts on global warming pointed out.
I hope you have a better grasp of history...
Envalus, though you're pretty damn wrong...quite conclusively, I do agree that too many children were diagnosed with ADD/ADHD in the early to mid 90s.
It was quite obvious, for me, which kids just needed better parenting and which kids actually had some sort of neurological difference.
My psychiatrist (specialized in ADHD) told me that a quick and simple way to tell if a child had a form of ADHD is to give him (or her) a stimulant. If the child calms down, they were probably diagnosed correctly. If they "speed" up, they probably were misdiagnosed. Though, that's not a 100% conclusive test, he would use repots back from parents on his new patients (that were taking ADD/ADHD meds) to gauge how the child was doing.
Anywho, something that specific indicates, at least, on a very observable level, that there is something different about some children, as far as "drugs" and their actions. They react the opposite of what you'd expect from the stimulants...very strange. I still don't understand why that happens, but it does.
That's just one very specific facet that is testable and observable.
As we expand our understanding of psychology, we are beginning to understand that things are not entirely up to the invidiual: it's not just pure environment. Lots of it have to do with genetics and even how the baby develops in the womb. Pretty cool stuff.
Sure, you may not like the fact that some people will have a legit excuse to, say, being an alcoholic or a pervert, but that doesn't change the fact that some people will have a genetic or some other uncontrollable factor, contributing to a behavior you deem negative.
That doesn't mean people with ADHD are idiots or lower than regular humans: they can do things you can't, and better, too. Play airhockey with someone that has ADHD: you'll probably get your ass kicked. Play a game of focus that requires the player to quickly change their focus and assess an item, such as pictionary: the ADHD player is the one you want on your team. hahaha.
BTW, I can't play a game for more than 3 hours. Usually, I get bored after about 20-40 minutes. Some games, especailly RPGS, that quickly change pace, story, and the tasks being done, are very enjoyable such as Fable and Fable2. I can play those games for up to 2-3 hours. Other games, like FPS games, I can't play for more than 20-40 minutes: it gets too damn boring.
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Yes. I've been diagnosed ADHD, OCD, Aspegers
ADHD?
I can see that.
OCD?
I can also see that.
Asperbergers?
Unless it's very very mild, I don't see that at all. You're far from Asperbergers. You've showed empathy, get jokes about as well as well as anyone, have really sharp wit (which flies right in the face of Asperbergers), and you don't ramble on and on. You seem very aware of those around you, at least on this board. I'd have to see you in person, though, to be sure. But, from what I can tell from your posts, you're quite normal...with just a smarter brain than most.
Originally posted by dadudemonADHD?
I can see that.
OCD?
I can also see that.
Asperbergers?
Unless it's very very mild, I don't see that at all. You're far from Asperbergers. You've showed empathy, get jokes about as well as well as anyone, have really sharp wit (which flies right in the face of Asperbergers), and you don't ramble on and on. You seem very aware of those around you, at least on this board. I'd have to see you in person, though, to be sure. But, from what I can tell from your posts, you're quite normal...with just a smarter brain than most.
So it is settled. He has ADHD and OCD. Dr. Dadudemon's second opinion rules out Asperger's conclusively.
Originally posted by dadudemon
ADHD?I can see that.
OCD?
I can also see that.
Asperbergers?
Unless it's very very mild, I don't see that at all. You're far from Asperbergers. You've showed empathy, get jokes about as well as well as anyone, have really sharp wit (which flies right in the face of Asperbergers), and you don't ramble on and on. You seem very aware of those around you, at least on this board. I'd have to see you in person, though, to be sure. But, from what I can tell from your posts, you're quite normal...with just a smarter brain than most.
KMC isn't a good example of where my problems are. In real life if I say something and then walk away because I'm embarrassed that's weird (and even more humiliating) so I avoid speaking at all unless I know the topic very well. Online I can take however long I want to compose an answer. You should see me when there are loud noises or multiple people speaking at once, too.
There's also the matter of time. I was in the first crop of people to actually have a diagnosis since childhood along with therapy and meds.
Sowing:- I managed to wreck 3 sowing machines and was crap the whole subject, funny enough I know enjoy sowing my clothes myself, it relaxes me.
Geography:- because the teacher was boring and I kept falling asleep and getting in trouble. If there had been a better teacher it might have been different, interesting subject when you think about it.
Teachers make a big difference.
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
KMC isn't a good example of where my problems are. In real life if I say something and then walk away because I'm embarrassed that's weird (and even more humiliating) so I avoid speaking at all unless I know the topic very well. Online I can take however long I want to compose an answer. You should see me when there are loud noises or multiple people speaking at once, too.There's also the matter of time. I was in the first crop of people to actually have a diagnosis since childhood along with therapy and meds.
(Shocked that you didn't notice my lil' misspelling in the previous post...more on this later.)
That's what Bardock told me, too: he likes to take time to compose his thoughts and, therefore, prefers text conversation over a verbal conversation.
But, yeah, I'd have to see how you interacted with people in real life to be sure. It's possible that I'm "prejudiced" because ALL of the people I've known that had Aspergers were probably on the extreme end of the syndrome...so someone like you would pale in comparison.
So, if you could, lie down on this couch I have here and tell me more. 馃槅
Anyway, this lady has the most extreme case of Aspergers that I've ever seen: