Is anyone interested in Star Wars the Old Republic?

DS
Still have yet to prove how the Emperor made him his pawn? What's that? Oh, Revan said so? In that case, I think we should believe Boris from Goldeneye when he says "I am invincible!"

These are only similar if one indulges in rather superficial thinking. First, Boris's claim of invincibility is demonstrably false; he dies almost immediately after uttering it (at least the last time); Revan's words are corroborated by the Jedi Council appointed historian Gnost-Dural and Revan's own elucidation on how the Emperor used him: To channel the "light side" and see visions. Second, Boris's words are boastful, a declaration of superiority; Revan's words are a confession, pride is not at play here, he has no demonstrable reason to lie or exaggerate.

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
These are only similar if one indulges in rather superficial thinking. First, Boris's claim of invincibility is demonstrably false; he dies almost immediately after uttering it (at least the last time); Revan's words are corroborated by the Jedi Council appointed historian Gnost-Dural and Revan's own elucidation on how the Emperor used him: To channel the "light side" and see visions. Second, Boris's words are boastful, a declaration of superiority; Revan's words are a confession, pride is not at play here, he has no demonstrable reason to lie or exaggerate.

Gnost Dural also claimed the Jedi's extermination of the sith was why the sith wanted revenge and that Revan was apparently taller than Malak. Also, explain exactly how Revan used him, don't just copy what you heard. And finally, Revan held the Emperor at bay for 300 years and even caused him to sign a treaty with the Republic, so he's the anti pawn.

I did explain how the Emperor used him, courtesy of the TOR spoilers delivered by Lucius.

"The Emperor used me as his link to the light side of the Force--the Jedi Order. Through me, he saw visions."

Your argument is patently absurd and you're willfully disregarding the source material presumably because you feel it defames your favorite character. That Revan was at one time a pawn of the Emperor's doesn't make him less of a badass or less intelligent or whatever, pretty much every single character in the mythos has technically been the pawn of another at one point in time. That Revan ultimately was working against the Emperor doesn't matter. Merriam-Webster's definition of a pawn is "one who is used to further the purposes of another."

The "one" in this case being Revan and the "other" being the Emperor, and the "purposes" being the visions the Emperor sought. It's logically airtight and incontrovertible and why you feel the need to argue is something I don't quite understand.

As far as Gnost Dural's claims are concerned, where did he claim that Revan was taller than Malak? As regards the issue of revenge, that is precisely what the Sith did want: The Complete Visual Dictionary confirms that this is why Palpatine is "the revenge of the Sith." I can fetch the quote if you like.

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
I did explain how the Emperor used him, courtesy of the TOR spoilers delivered by Lucius.

"The Emperor used me as his link to the light side of the Force--the Jedi Order. Through me, he saw visions."

Your argument is patently absurd and you're willfully disregarding the source material presumably because you feel it defames your favorite character. That Revan was at one time a pawn of the Emperor's doesn't make him less of a badass or less intelligent or whatever, pretty much every single character in the mythos has technically been the pawn of another at one point in time. That Revan ultimately was working against the Emperor doesn't matter. Merriam-Webster's definition of a pawn is "one who is used to further the purposes of another."

As far as Gnost Dural's claims are concerned, where did he claim that Revan was taller than Malak? As regards the issue of revenge, that is precisely what the Sith did want: The Complete Visual Dictionary confirms that this is why Palpatine is "the revenge of the Sith." I can fetch the quote if you like.

DS
Imagine that, you're taking a single quote at face value and as the end all be all of your argument, because it suits your argument.

You seek to disregard the quote and its source simply because it doesn't support your worldview of how things ought to be concerning your favorite character. Imagine that.

The quote and its source are perfectly canon and are contradicted by nothing. You're clinging to Revan's goals differing from the Emperor's as some sort of mantra as though it undermines the accepted definition of the term. Padme Amidala and Jar Jar Binks sought to prevent the Clone Wars by defeating the Military Creation Act, which opposed Palpatine's goals entirely, yet it didn't stop him from using both of them to further his ends. By your reckoning, they must not be pawns either.

DS
The quote is suddenly airtight and incontrovertible?

Unless you have something other than their opposing agendas to contradict it.

DS
How can Palpatine be the "revenge of the sith" when it was the True Sith Empire? Also, Palpatine's revenge comes in the form of Bane's order. Please stop playing dumb.

Because the Sith have historically wanted revenge against the Jedi for the extermination of the Sith. The Sith Empire as of the events of this game never achieved it, they never wiped the Jedi out or completely conquered the galaxy.

The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia, Volume III, page 150
The Sith Order, in hiding for a millennium, had awaited the birth of one who was powerful enough to return the Order to prominence. Darth Sidious was the fulfillment of that prophecy, capable of exacting the Sith’s revenge on the Jedi for having nearly eradicated the practitioners of the dark side of the Force.

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
You seek to disregard the quote and its source simply because it doesn't support your worldview of how things ought to be concerning your favorite character. Imagine that.

The quote and its source are perfectly canon and are contradicted by nothing. You're clinging to Revan's goals differing from the Emperor's as some sort of mantra as though it undermines the accepted definition of the term. Padme Amidala and Jar Jar Binks sought to prevent the Clone Wars by defeating the Military Creation Act, which opposed Palpatine's goals entirely, yet it didn't stop him from using both of them to further his ends. By your reckoning, they must not be pawns either.

Because the Sith have historically wanted revenge against the Jedi for the extermination of the Sith. The Sith Empire as of the events of this game never achieved it, they never wiped the Jedi out or completely conquered the galaxy. [/B]

DS
Just like you seek to use it as the backbone of your argument precisely because it helps your argument. Shocking.

Er... why wouldn't I use evidence that supports my argument to... support my argument?

DS
Then again, I disregard it because it's contradicting actual facts and common sense.

Your facts is limited to one thing: That Revan's goal was to oppose and ultimately defeat the Emperor. As I adequately explained with my parallel involving Padme, Jar Jar, and Palpatine, it doesn't matter.

DS
I'm clinging to nothing but actual facts of the KOTOR games, as well as everything I've read from Ares' files, which I can assure you is vastly more than you've touched upon.

The quote doesn't magically become invalid simply because it doesn't put your favorite charactertemplate on a pedestal. 😬

DS
Correct me if I'm wrong but Revan's JCW wiped out more Jedi than the Jedi Purge,

Source?

DS
the True Sith actually REMOVED the Jedi from Coruscant as well as destroying the Temple,

...Which didn't destroy the order. They were still organized and still strong, just relocated.

DS
and Krayt's sith did the same thing.

Which happened after Palpatine's rise?

DS
So you have many "revenges of the sith", rather than one which succeeded in conquering the galaxy for 2 decades.

Not sure what you're getting at, since the first definitive victory over the Jedi was Palpatine's. Gnost Dural's claim that the Sith wanted revenge for the Jedi's extermination of the Sith is a grudge that the order has long clung to and of which Palpatine was the culmination, hence the name of the movie.

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
Er... why wouldn't I use evidence that supports my argument to... support my argument?

Your facts is limited to one thing: That Revan's goal was to oppose and ultimately defeat the Emperor. As I adequately explained with my parallel involving Padme, Jar Jar, and Palpatine, it doesn't matter.

Source?

Not sure what you're getting at, since the first definitive victory over the Jedi was Palpatine's. Gnost Dural's claim that the Sith wanted revenge for the Jedi's extermination of the Sith is a grudge that the order has long clung to and of which Palpatine was the culmination. [/B]

DS
Because you usually argue quotes when they [b]don't support your argument and consider them ironclad when they do.[/b]

Certainly not out of sheer fiat or because of preference, unlike you.

DS
Yet all you have is a one sentence admission from revan,

Who knew that the words of the man who is the only person with the full picture on the strategy to oppose the Emperor would suddenly be incredible? 😬

DS
and a plethora of information that contradicts that.

Your opinion and the reiteration that their goals were mutually opposed does not a plethora make.

DS
Barely 100 jedi remained after Revan's war and even less after the Triumvirate finished their plans.

This is somewhat undermined by the fact that Revan and Kreia were almost immediately defeated by the Jedi shortly after these purges took place.

DS
I don't recall Palpatine doing anything other than wiping out the Jedi Order, which just means a (god knows how much) number of Jedi renounced their "jedi" paths.

Still not sure what you're getting at, the Sith wanted to destroy, not convert.

DS
Destroying the Jedi temple, sacking Coruscant, and sending the remaining Jedi to Tython was a definitive victory. Leaving less than 100 jedi alive in the entire galaxy and having no jedi order was also a definitive victory.

Not on the order of magnitude of Palpatine's victory, which was slightly more comprehensive.

DS
And again, there's no connection between Palpatine's revenge and the True Sith Empire's revenge.

Except that their revenge was in the words of both sources (Dural and the Encyclopedia)... the same thing? And that the Sith Brotherhood wasn't wiped out by the Jedi, thus requiring the quote to refer to a much more ancient extermination by Jedi? mmm

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
Certainly not out of sheer fiat or because of preference, unlike you.

Who knew that the words of the man who is the only person with the full picture on the strategy to oppose the Emperor would suddenly be incredible? 😬

Your opinion and the reiteration that their goals were mutually opposed does not a plethora make.

This is somewhat undermined by the fact that Revan and Kreia were almost immediately defeated by the Jedi shortly after these purges took place.

Not on the order of magnitude of Palpatine's victory, which was slightly more comprehensive.

Except that their revenge was in the words of both sources (Dural and the Encyclopedia)... the same thing? And that the Sith Brotherhood wasn't wiped out by the Jedi, thus requiring the quote to refer to a much more ancient extermination by Jedi? mmm [/B]

The quote isn't canon yet. Bioware could easily remove it before launch day comes. Therefore I don't think you should be treating it as ironclad proof of your argument Gideon.

We need to know several things.

How useful were the visions Revan provided the Emperor? We don't know.

How strong was Revan's mental influence on the Emperor? This can be somewhat answered in that Revan was able to get the Emperor to agree to peace and prevent him from continuing the war. This is despite the Emperor's ultimate goal of killing everything in the galaxy. That's some pretty damn good influence.

The above would need to be weighed before any statement on Revan's status as a pawn can be made outside of a purely semantic argument. Simply saying that Revan was a pawn because of a context free definition, is not a good argument. He may have, at some point in those three hundred years fit that definition, but it's not binary; it's a gradient. If his overall usefulness of a pawn is negligible, then it doesn't really matter if he fits the context free definition.

I can move a chess pawn forward to further my goal of winning the game, but if circumstances arise where that pawn becomes a problem (a frequent concern for inexperienced chess players who fail to properly set up their pawn formation,) then it's not very useful to me now is it?

There is some limited evidence (a single boast by a PC in the Imperial Revan flashpoint) that the Emperor allowed Revan escape so he could lead the Empire to the Star Forge copy.

Originally posted by Lucius
We need to know several things.

How useful were the visions Revan provided the Emperor?

How strong was Revan's mental influence on the Emperor? This once can be somewhat answered in that Revan was able to get the Emperor to agree to peace and prevent him from continuing the war. This is despite the Emperor's ultimate goal of killing everything in the galaxy. That's some pretty damn good influence.

The above would need to be weighed before any statement on Revan's status as a pawn can be made outside of a purely semantic argument. Simply saying that Revan was a pawn because of a context free definition, is not a good argument. He may have, at some point in those three hundred years fit that definition, but it's not binary; it's a gradient. If his overall usefulness of a pawn is negligible, then it doesn't really matter if he fits the context free definition.

I can move a chess pawn forward to further my goal of winning the game, but if circumstances arise where that pawn becomes a problem (a frequent concern for inexperienced chess players who fail to properly set up their pawn formation,) then it's not very useful to me now is it?

There is some limited evidence (a single boast by a PC in the Imperial Revan flashpoint) that the Emperor allowed Revan escape so he could lead the Empire to the Star Forge copy.

Thank you.

DS
Denial can be a powerful enemy.

Well you'd know, wouldn't you? 😂

DS
Who knew that people would question the man who has been in stasis for 300 years🙂

Especially when that man is not being used for his physical intelligence on the galaxy's current state of affairs and is still cogent enough to exert some sort of influence on the Emperor. Yup, he sounds completely useless.

You have no idea how amusing it is to see you rabidly defend Revan to the point that it is inconceivable for you to believe him to be a pawn of anyone and in the same thread discredit his words and regard his use to the Emperor entirely. Are you really that desperate to fight this? That you'll undermine him in an effort to strengthen him? Talk about cutting off one's nose to spite one's face. 😂

DS
Yet their goals were mutually opposed,

Yet this has absolutely nothing to do with whether one is a pawn or not. The saga is rife with examples of characters who were used by other characters with radically different goals.

DS
yet you have one simple line from the character,

Your favorite character, the omniscient and intractable Revan, whose intellectual and psychological powers are so formidable that he is immune to any and all forms of deceit, manipulation, and trickery. One would think that with such potency and intellect, his word on the subject might mean something/

DS
yet you have a plethora of events contradicting it.

Except you've failed to actually provide evidence of these events, but you've made your M.O. clear already:

DS
I dont need sources,

DS
Kreia states that barely 100 jedi remained [b]after Revan left.[/b]

I'll need something else, because all I see is "one simple line from the character." 😂

DS
Also, there were 5 years in between both games, so I don't think "shortly" would be the appropriate word.

Relative to the two decades a certain other Sith ruled and purged? Yeah, it's appropriate.

DS
Depending on how one looks at it but we know where you stand.

When you can offer a credible argument on this tangent, give me a jingle. I hope you do, because I'm genuinely curious as to how deep this love for Revan goes.

DS
Explain how the source reconciles the two empires and their respective "revenges". I'll be waiting.

Both sources (Gnost-Dural, the Encyclopedia) reference that the Sith (the remnants of Sadow's order that constitute the Sith Emperor's army and Bane's order) wanted revenge against the Jedi for the near extermination of the Sith. Given that the Sith Emperor never successfully destroyed the Jedi or conquered the galaxy, it seems pretty logical that Bane's order, being a mere continuation of the Sith Emperor's order (which in turn is a continuation of previous orders), would desire the same thing especially when the previous incarnation of the order before Bane took charge wasn't destroyed by Jedi.

Or you can look at them as entirely separate entities (which they're not) with different motivations (which they don't have) and different concepts of revenge (even though the sources say otherwise). It's your choice, and we both know where you stand. 😂

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
Well you'd know, wouldn't you? 😂

Especially when that man is not being used for his physical intelligence on the galaxy's current state of affairs and is still cogent enough to exert some sort of influence on the Emperor. Yup, he sounds completely useless.

You have no idea how amusing it is to see you rabidly defend Revan to the point that it is inconceivable for you to believe him to be a pawn of anyone and in the same thread discredit his words and regard his use to the Emperor entirely. Are you really that desperate to fight this? That you'll undermine him in an effort to strengthen him? Talk about cutting off one's nose to spite one's face. 😂

Yet this has absolutely nothing to do with whether one is a pawn or not. The saga is rife with examples of characters who were used by other characters with radically different goals.

Your favorite character, the omniscient and intractable Revan, whose intellectual and psychological powers are so formidable that he is immune to any and all forms of deceit, manipulation, and trickery. One would think that with such potency and intellect, his word on the subject might mean something/

Except you've failed to actually provide evidence of these events, but you've made your M.O. clear already:

When you can offer a credible argument on this tangent, give me a jingle. I hope you do, because I'm genuinely curious as to how deep this love for Revan goes.

Or you can look at them as entirely separate entities (which they're not) with different motivations (which they don't have) and different concepts of revenge (even though the sources say otherwise). It's your choice, and we both know where you stand. 😂 [/B]

DS
I learned from the best

Janus has nothing to do with this and I'd kindly ask that you leave him out of it. uhuh

DS
Yea, still cogent enough to fight the Emperor but not enough to portray the current state of affairs.

Spoiler:
The Emperor's getting Force visions from Revan, DS, not an intelligence report and personal testimony.

DS
Only slightly more amusing is you trying to use 1 simple quote as the backbone of your argument, when all facts are against you..Truly entertaining.

Says the guy who deflects, evades, and retreats when asked what these facts are. 😂

DS
I believe Veneficus covered it once and for all.

You might want to read the whole thing:

Lucius
He may have, at some point in those three hundred years fit that definition,

^ Even Lucius is unable to oppose the fact that Revan technically fits the definition, even if his use as a pawn was limited. I never said Revan was a dupe or a patsy, just that he was at one point a tool used by the Emperor. It's sad that you think this somehow limits Revan's intellect.

DS
OOO talk about someone getting defensive and completely embellishing one's viewpoint. Amusing.

Aren't you the guy who's spent the past several pages b1tching and moaning as to what this horrible, wretched game has done to the shining aura and reputation of his favorite character? You've shed tears, virtual and physical, over this subject, my love. I'm just calling you out on it and telling you there's no need.

DS
You continuously ignoring said evidence doesn't mean I've failed to provide it. I appreciate the selective reading though.

No, the fact that you failed to provide the evidence means you've failed to provide it.

DS
I believe I've already destroyed your one liner argument. Watching you squirm and get defensive is evident of that.

While watching me squirm might involve a deep and mildly interesting sexual fantasy, my lighthearted mocking of you isn't evidence of anything other than lighthearted mocking, which I do with everyone. Ask Neph. I mean, are you (as others have suggested) actually sexually insecure because you constantly use that as a point of discussion with others? No? I didn't think so. Single standards, sweetheart. 😂

DS
Yea, I stand with the more logical conclusion (hint: Less Sidious fanboyism),

Yup, because this somehow definitely makes Palpatine more uber. 😂

DS
in that there were several revenges and you can spin one particular one to your advantage, as you're so keen on doing. 😆

I'd ask if you care to actually provide evidence, but as with pawn, I'm wondering if you actually understand the definition of the term. mmm

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir

Spoiler:
The Emperor's getting Force visions from Revan, DS, not an intelligence report and personal testimony.

Says the guy who deflects, evades, and retreats when asked what these facts are. 😂

^ Even Lucius is unable to oppose the fact that Revan technically fits the definition, even if his use as a pawn was limited. I never said Revan was a dupe or a patsy, just that he was at one point a tool used by the Emperor. It's sad that you think this somehow limits Revan's intellect.

Aren't you the guy who's spent the past several pages b1tching and moaning as to what this horrible, wretched game has done to the shining aura and reputation of his favorite character? You've shed tears, virtual and physical, over this subject, my love. I'm just calling you out on it and telling you there's no need.

No, the fact that you failed to provide the evidence means you've failed to provide it.

While watching me squirm might involve a deep and mildly interesting sexual fantasy, my lighthearted mocking of you isn't evidence of anything other than lighthearted mocking, which I do with everyone. Ask Neph. I mean, are you (as others have suggested) actually sexually insecure because you constantly use that as a point of discussion with others? No? I didn't think so. Single standards, sweetheart. 😂

I'd ask if you care to actually provide evidence, but as with pawn, I'm wondering if you actually understand the definition of the term. mmm [/B]

😐

The argument was about a single word: pawn, and whether or not Revan qualified to be described by the word. By its very nature, the entire discussion was semantic, and so arguing semantics means one is defeated?

😂 😂 😂

The guy who's going to law school is telling me that arguing the meaning of words is a defeated argument?

The irony is so thick you'd probably choke on it if you weren't too busy determinedly deep throating Revan's junk. You're probably going to hate your job.

haermm

Concession accepted, dude, but this has been seriously fun.

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
😐

The argument was about a single word: pawn, and whether or not Revan qualified to be described by the word. By its very nature, the entire discussion was semantic, and so arguing semantics means one is defeated?

Concession accepted, dude, but this has been seriously fun.

Originally posted by mattatom
Win.

Also, havent realised I was missed.

Spoiler:
You missed my Unbiased fanboyism of Bandon and my shanking admit it!

Unbiased fanboyism?

It's a paradox!

Also, Bandon for president.