David Cameron WINS!

I am calling your view blinkered because you are engaging in self-denial despite how obvious this is.

So I will go on calling it blinkered. And I don't know about you- but I have read many MANY reports of his temper and bullying attitude over several years. Most recently, we've just heard one about him yelling at Nick Clegg over the phone. There are just too many of these reports to deny. There comes a point where it is just stupid to dismiss it.

But whatever! You guys can spend all your time asking "Why was he not liked?" in confusion, despite the answers being obvious. You can keep looking for more excuses too. Changes nothing.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Just mirroring what I say is pretty feeble. If you want to put up the "we cannot prove it" argument then go ahead. But you are still wrong, and you will continue to be wrong as it all comes out in the years to come in memoirs, biographies, released papers etc. You honestly are just fooling yourself and no amount of indignation from you will change that. I feel kind of sorry for you in a way. It's true though- I cannot be bothered to argue with someone like yourself. I don;t needs to, though. What I say is true, and my confidence in that is very high. No arguing will change that and I don't care if you don't agree.

As it all comes out in the years to come? So it hasn't come out yet. Listen you know the media distort alot of stuff so im simply saying to you don't assume its true. How is that a bad argument.

Originally posted by Ushgarak

The rest of your post is just not looking at mine. Please do the courtesy of reading my posts properly. I mentioned how Blair still held authority despite issues- and how it took so long after so much success before any of this gave him trouble. Brown ran into trouble almost immediately.

I did. My poiint is that eventhough Brown isn't as good as Bliar, Blair still had some serious problems.

Originally posted by Ushgarak

This would be the same press that was so amazingly behind Blair, yes?The media argument is a poor one, Brown was crappy at handling the media, that is why it didn't like him. And the bullying stories came from many different sources. You re close to saying that because it was in the media it cannot be true. Dearie me.

No you need to listen. Im saying that just because its in the media does not neccesarily make it true. Let me give you one example in Haiti the media blantantly made the situation worse than it actually was and made blantant lies. Thats not the only example you know for a fact that the media distort information why are you assuming that its true. Im saying keep an open mind.

I actually think theres no smoke without fire I suspect theres truth to it but what the media do is blow things out of proportion.

Originally posted by Ushgarak

Some very blinkered views here. Some people need more realism.

Bottom line remains- he was a crap leader and his performance shows that.

Again Charisma is important but im pretty sure one reason why he lacked charisma was his appearance, sorry mate thats just shallow. He did well despite the obstacles, still no proof he was weak internationally.

I never said I liked him. I just don't think he was that bad as a politition and I can't stand a person's character being sladered just because he's unpopular. The man was uncharasmatic and he put his foot in his mouth a lot but politics in Britain is about more than public speaking. If you think otherwise you're wrong. Why do you think that a lot of people are agaisnt the debates? It's because it promotes voting for a man and not a party. Look at polititions of the past. Blair broke the mould. Charisma has only recently become everyone's favourite wanking tool. I still believe there is more too it than that.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
I am calling your view blinkered because you are engaging in self-denial despite how obvious this is.

So I will go on calling it blinkered. And I don't know about you- but I have read many MANY reports of his temper and bullying attitude over several years. Most recently, we've just heard one about him yelling at Nick Clegg over the phone. There are just too many of these reports to deny. There comes a point where it is just stupid to dismiss it.

But whatever! You guys can spend all your time asking "Why was he not liked?" in confusion, despite the answers being obvious. You can keep looking for more excuses too. Changes nothing.

Um Ush I actually think theres truth to it but as I stated the media tend to exaggerate things and are very good at distorting information. I just think he wasn't liked because he wasn't slick.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
I think if you dismiss the idea of Brown as a bully as just hearsay you are wilfully blinding yourself.

He was a joke, internationally. Again, he might have had some good technical ideas to deal with financial issues but his presence on that stage was close to zero- just look at the EU President debacle.

And there is value in being slick, as a leader. But even if Brown had had that, he would still have lost because his record was so poor. He'd lost control- his own party was falling apart and confidence in Labour to actually get things sorted was close to zero.

He never won an election. He never provided any amount of inspiration. He was a small man internationally. He could not control the media, parliament, his party or even his cabinet. By any definition of what a leader needs, he failed.

Spot on, in fact I was thinking that Labour wanted to loose the election on purpose by having him as leader.

He might have had good ideas, and been actually good at certain things. But A lot of people vote for a party because of the charisma, character and maybe even looks of the leader. These could also be key reasons that scruff Michael Foot wasn´t elected years ago.

As for Cameron & Clegg, maybe they can work together and actually get things going. If not there will be another election this year🙂

Nick Clegg looks a lot like Paul Young the singer, anyone else noticed this?

Originally posted by Bicnarok

But A lot of people vote for a party because of the charisma, character and maybe even looks of the leader.

You do realise that this is not neccesarily a good thing?

Originally posted by Deadline

Why was he joke internationally. I hear you saying that but what proof do you have?

I think, I have an answer for you.

Here in the States few of us pick up the Daniel Hannan video of the devalued PM on youtube. Analysts commented that it was rather bizarre the US made the video more popular than in the UK. So, people like myself took a different view on Brown. I read more about him and how the UK wasn't too happy with the man. I wasn't the only person who took notice...many conservatives (not myself since I'm Independent) radio talk shows also use Brown as a negative.

What also did not help Brown was this recent video:

YouTube video

Now, to be perfectly clear cut with you...I'm not a huge watch dog of UK politics. So personaly I can't critique Brown directly...just what it is thrown @ us here in the States. Personally, I'm more worry about our current federal govenment but I don't engage so much discussion, because I don't want to deal with the stupidity and fanaticism of Obama supporters.

Originally posted by WickedDynamite
I think, I have an answer for you.

Here in the States few of us pick up the Daniel Hannan video of the devalued PM on youtube. Analysts commented that it was rather bizarre the US made the video more popular than in the UK. So, people like myself took a different view on Brown. I read more about him and how the UK wasn't too happy with the man. I wasn't the only person who took notice...many conservatives (not myself since I'm Independent) radio talk shows also use Brown as a negative.

What also did not help Brown was this recent video:

YouTube video

Now, to be perfectly clear cut with you...I'm not a huge watch dog of UK politics. So personaly I can't critique Brown directly...just what it is thrown @ us here in the States. Personally, I'm more worry about our current federal govenment but I don't engage so much discussion, because I don't want to deal with the stupidity and fanaticism of Obama supporters.

I don't live in the US so I can't comment it seems that his opinion on economics was highly respected and got a standing ovation from EU leaders (or other internationals).

How on earth does that make him look bad? For starters doesn't prove he has a temper like other people have been saying.

Oh god that bigoted woman thing was blown way out of proportion, he said it in PRIVATE. I expect we all say things in private that are not meant to be heard...

Anyway, I'm happy it's become a coalition. I didn't vote Conservatives, but I wanted Labour out; I wanted either the Liberal Democrats in or a hung parliament of Con/Lib and that's what we got here.

Just really hope it works.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
I am calling your view blinkered because you are engaging in self-denial despite how obvious this is.

So I will go on calling it blinkered. And I don't know about you- but I have read many MANY reports of his temper and bullying attitude over several years. Most recently, we've just heard one about him yelling at Nick Clegg over the phone. There are just too many of these reports to deny. There comes a point where it is just stupid to dismiss it.

But whatever! You guys can spend all your time asking "Why was he not liked?" in confusion, despite the answers being obvious. You can keep looking for more excuses too. Changes nothing.

I think events conspired against him as well. Taking over from Blair just prior to a complete meltdown of the world economy meant that, domestically, he could be portrayed by unfriendly media as a bumbling idiot who contributed to the problem despite the fact that he is possibly the best Chancellor in the UK's history.

From that point on it was game over. I still remember the comment in the house of commons when it was said that he went from being Stalin to Mr Bean. Once you're portrayed as such and in the climate he had to operate in then he pretty much didn't have a hope.

I also think that the way he is perceived on the international stage is portrayed differently in our domestic media than it is in the international media. Same thing with Blair...He is reviled in the UK but in the US he is still well regarded as being an excellent politician and diplomat.

That's the power of media for you regardless of what is actually true.

I do believe that Brown tried to centralise power and pretty much shut out his entire cabinet and all junior ministers from the decision making process. I do also believe he has a temper (He's from Fife...no wonder he's grumpy)

For what it's worth...I'm glad he's gone...I believe that regardless of how he performed as a PM or a Chancellor, Labour had become stagnant and needed to be replaced and and take time out to restructure and revitalise to become relevant to the public again. I think this is inevitable for any party...I also think that they are actually lucky NOT to have won as another 5 years in power would mean that they most certainly would have self destructed by the next election and end up out in the political wilderness far longer than the Tories have been since 1997.

I do think that the Tory has absolutely no mandate to govern Scotland though...I don't want to get into the history of why this is because quite frankly I find it boring and I also view my fellow countrymen as pathetic when they still perpetuate a mentality regarding the Tories as if they were still in the 1980s and early 90s. I have friends who still harp on about hating Thatcher despite not even being old enough to remember her reign as PM.

As for me....I voted Scottish National Party in the election...Not because I agree with any of their polices because I think they are as backward and pathetic as any other national ideological party, but because it was the only valid choice in my constituency for tactical voting to get Labour out....It didn't help...Labour actually increased their majority by 4%.

I also think that if Labour and the Lib-Dems had done a deal then it would have been the biggest afront to democracy ever seen. While I accept that noone actually fully "won" the election, if there was one definite loser then it was Labour...They lost over 100 seats....If they were to stay in power after losing the biggest number of seats in an election for some 100 years then it would have been tantamount to a coup.

/rant.

Very well said!

Although as I'm an English person living in Scotland: Boooo on voting for SNP. 😛

Originally posted by Deadline
You do realise that this is not neccesarily a good thing?

Yep, in fact its a baaad thing.

If the best person should be in, it would probably be some long haired freaky scientist.

The bigoted woman thing was so funny. It's was so incredibly politely stated, too.

So, any chance you'll leave that silly winner-takes-all business behind any time soon?

I felt sorry for the man over the bigoted woman remark. He was obviously just feeling down about the state of the campaign when this woman came out of nowhere and put him on the spot about imigration. I don't think he actually thinks she's a bigot, he was just venting.

Although she did say to him "And all these eastern europeans here, where are they coming from?".... Which I found hilarious... Silly old *****.

We will hopefully be seeing an end to the winner takes all thing before hte next election... If the Lib Dems have there way about it that is.

Originally posted by Bardock42

So, any chance you'll leave that silly winner-takes-all business behind any time soon?

No clue which way it will go if it goes to a referendum. I have no idea why they would put it to a referendum either because most people have no clue whatsoever about the differences between 1st past the post, alternative vote and the different types of proportional representation and the single transferable vote system anyway.

I doubt it will go to a referendum... I suspect that it was probably a part of the Lib Dem/Tory deal.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Oh, of course it was his fault! Blimey, trying to absolve someone so clearly not suited for the role of leader is very much just a matter of covering your eyes and ears. The only thing that was not his fault was the economic crisis (and even then, some blame can be attached to him being part of the creation of the system that made it happen, though there is little reason to think other chancellors would have done differently).

A man like Blair, in contrast, was very good at commanding the loyalty of his party even if not liked, and showed great intelligence in handelling the media. It took ten years, three victorious elections and a major war before the gloss wore off him, and history will still treat him well. Brown- less so.

For the G20 thing- refer to what I said above. He might have good ideas. That doesn't change that he was a very poor international statesman and we suffered for it.

Charisma is actually very important in the leader of a nation. VERY important. It is a huge mistake to dismiss it. He was much better suited in one of the offices of state- Home Office, Foreign Office or the Treasury. Hence his best days will always have been at the treasury. He should never have been leader- he was not cut out for it. And becoming so proved a disaster.

Why people cannot recognise that a person who cannot control his party or cabinet is a godawful leader is beyond me. He couldn't sack his own Chancellor! That's a man who has totally lost any authority or control. Hopeless! All he could do was cling to power like a limpet regardless of the damage he caused to his party and the nation- even after he lost the darn election, he tried to hold on to deal to continue in power.

Seriously, Brown failed almost every test in this regard. History will judge him as a nobody as PM- ineffectual, unpopular, unelected, and a failure.

Sinn Fein's still got some seats ;]

Originally posted by jaden101
IThey lost over 100 seats....If they were to stay in power after losing the biggest number of seats in an election for some 100 years then it would have been tantamount to a coup.

/rant.

Sooooooooooooo, yerong.

i belive that the whole govement is curupted. as a nation we are ****ed