This probably isn't going to be the most popular answer, but I'd say the trio. When fighting against other martial artists, KK is the best but not as absolutely overpowering as his performance against metas suggests (He's like top tier+, then add in a selection of anti-meta moves that don't help as much against other fighters), and Shiva and Elektra are both *beasts*. Cheshire less-so, but she has the poison thing to make her dangerous.
Originally posted by Q99
This probably isn't going to be the most popular answer, but I'd say the trio. When fighting against other martial artists, KK is the best but not as absolutely overpowering as his performance against metas suggests (He's like top tier+, then add in a selection of anti-meta moves that don't help as much against other fighters), and Shiva and Elektra are both *beasts*. Cheshire less-so, but she has the poison thing to make her dangerous.
Which "martial artists" are you talking about? Pre-Crisis Val literally DOMINATED his nemesis (who was trained by the same master). Black Tiger came back a better fighter and still got his but whipped. If we're talking about Val who just woke up from a COMA and still thought he was a villain controlled by Starro STILL took Batman to school. Grabbed his utility belt, which NOBODY has ever done and again, this is while Val still thought he was a villain working for someone else.
Originally posted by Prep-Man
Which "martial artists" are you talking about? Pre-Crisis Val literally DOMINATED his nemesis (who was trained by the same master). Black Tiger came back a better fighter and still got his but whipped. If we're talking about Val who just woke up from a COMA and still thought he was a villain controlled by Starro STILL took Batman to school. Grabbed his utility belt, which NOBODY has ever done and again, this is while Val still thought he was a villain working for someone else.
Still, it was an actual fight, and we're talking three-on-one here.
"Not as absolutely overpowering" doesn't mean he's not still the best without question, just that other martial arts can actually fight him him.
Originally posted by Q99
Still, it was an actual fight, and we're talking three-on-one here."Not as absolutely overpowering" doesn't mean he's not still the best without question, just that other martial arts can actually fight him him.
A handicapped fight, where Val lost his identity. Not in his right mind and still made Batman the inferior. Give Val (Pre-Crisis) real health, he'd school the 3 above. It's nothing he hasn't seen before.
Originally posted by Prep-Man
A handicapped fight, where Val lost his identity. Not in his right mind and still made Batman the inferior.
Yes, but the handicap shouldn't affect his fighting skills *that* much (his reflexes'd be intact), and it's not just two slightly better than Batman people plus a third pretty good one, it's having to do all three at the same time. He only has the same number of limbs as he had against Batman, and ganging up in general is more than an additive bonus, it also increases the effectiveness of each opponent as they take advantage of the distraction their fellows bring and help defend each other.
Even if he's twice as good in his right mind, he'd still lose to a three-on-one against this crew.
Give Val (Pre-Crisis) real health, he'd school the 3 above. It's nothing he hasn't seen before.
I don't think he's fought three people this good all at the same time.
Originally posted by Q99
Yes, but the handicap shouldn't affect his fighting skills *that* much (his reflexes'd be intact), and it's not just two slightly better than Batman people plus a third pretty good one, it's having to do all three at the same time. He only has the same number of limbs as he had against Batman, and ganging up in general is more than an additive bonus, it also increases the effectiveness of each opponent as they take advantage of the distraction their fellows bring and help defend each other.Even if he's twice as good in his right mind, he'd still lose to a three-on-one against this crew.
I don't think he's fought three people this good all at the same time.
In his RIGHT mind, he made Black Tiger look like a fool. BT >>> Batman.
Made Black Mace look like a child MC >>> Shiva.
Made Emerald Empress look like nothing. And Emerald Empress>>> Shiva as well. Emerald Empress at a time was the best assassin in the UNIVERSE.
Also fought an army of the toughest criminals in the universe at once.
And fought the Fatal Five by himself.
Again FF>>> the 3 listed above.
Originally posted by Prep-Man
Which "martial artists" are you talking about? Pre-Crisis Val literally DOMINATED his nemesis (who was trained by the same master). Black Tiger came back a better fighter and still got his but whipped. If we're talking about Val who just woke up from a COMA and still thought he was a villain controlled by Starro STILL took Batman to school. Grabbed his utility belt, which NOBODY has ever done and again, this is while Val still thought he was a villain working for someone else.
Not to mention, Val has non combat feats that are so blatantly out of street levelers league, it makes it pretty obvious the only reason Batman wasn't killed on the first attack is heavy duty PIS...
Pre Crisis feats include everything from shattering a thrown axe, karate chopping tanks in half, to making his own little earthquake with a stomp.. Post crisis feats are no less impressive, such as when he cleared untold tons of snow burying a building in a single punch...
When Batman was being a dick to Val, I was wishing Solomon Grundy, Deathstroke, or Prometheus would come out of nowhere and rush Bats and find themselves on a casual one chop KO. Or at least perform a feat worthy of Superman.
Than see the look on Bats face.
Originally posted by Prep-Man
In his RIGHT mind, he made Black Tiger look like a fool. BT >>> Batman.Made Black Mace look like a child MC >>> Shiva.
Made Emerald Empress look like nothing. And Emerald Empress>>> Shiva as well. Emerald Empress at a time was the best assassin in the UNIVERSE.
All solo fights, I note.
Fighting multiple coordinated top-tier martial artists (one with powers and weapons) is tougher than fighting one uber-tier martial artist.
This trio working together would I feel handle any of those fights solidly.
Also fought an army of the toughest criminals in the universe at once.
Dangerous criminals, sure, but not so individually skilled martial artists. Beating mobs is a lot different than fighting top tiers.
Also, if we're talking the Reboot KK when that happened, they beat him up the first go, but only when he recovered his focus and was more mentally prepared did he handle them.
And fought the Fatal Five by himself.Again FF>>> the 3 listed above.
Avoid getting killed by the Five and inflict some minor damage, sure. Hardly a *martial arts* fight, though.
Originally posted by cdtm
Isn't 3boot the one who schooled Ultra Boy?I think he could handle all three too.
He 'schooled' him by using UB's own carelessness against him when UB rushed him. Throwing around someone of that strength who is using little fighting skill isn't all that impressive, Shiva or Elektra could do that too.
Eh, like I said, I knew my take wouldn't be popular, but performance against high-powereds does not equal similar stompage against handling *multiple* highly skilled foes at once.
Originally posted by Q99
All solo fights, I note.Fighting multiple coordinated top-tier martial artists (one with powers and weapons) is tougher than fighting one uber-tier martial artist.
This trio working together would I feel handle any of those fights solidly.
Dangerous criminals, sure, but not so individually skilled martial artists. Beating mobs is a lot different than fighting top tiers.
Avoid getting killed by the Five and inflict some minor damage, sure. Hardly a *martial arts* fight, though.
Note he actually took Superman out with this move, along with holding his own against the LOSH.
He can handle group matches just fine.
Originally posted by Q99
He 'schooled' him by using UB's own carelessness against him when UB rushed him. Throwing around someone of that strength who is using little fighting skill isn't all that impressive, Shiva or Elektra could do that too.Eh, like I said, I knew my take wouldn't be popular, but performance against high-powereds does not equal similar stompage against handling *multiple* highly skilled foes at once.
Shiva could dodge a super speed rush? KK noted Ultra Boy switched to super speed before the dodge.
Cassandra has also handled Superboy and Bizarro Supergirl.
Note he actually took Superman out with this move, along with holding his own against the LOSH.He can handle group matches just fine.
Yea, again, against powered types, not high-end martial artists. These are incredibly skilled fighters, a lot more-so than those in the scan.
Again performance against metas =/= performance against martial artists. When he fights skilled martial artist it's always solo, and multiple-on-one is a big multiplier (in part since it means fighting with his *back* to at least one of them).
