But none of those things say ANYTHING more than what we see onscreen. And what we see onscreen looks an awful lot like a stale-mate.
from their positions at the end of the fight? Right when Yoda decided to retreat? Obviously. That was obvious from the moment the fight ended on-screen. Palpatine was in a superior position, and too powerful at that moment for Yoda to confront.
Your strongest argument is in the ROTS novelization. You haven't brought it up, so I thought i'd give it to you. Look it up. THAT'S where you want to be basing your argument, not on narratives that just repeat what we see onscreen.
Yoda most likely wins. They duel, Yoda in most cases disarms Sidious. Since there isn't as much of a vertical battlefield in the Temple, Sidious would be hard pressed to get away. He might try Force lightning as a trump card, but remember that Yoda managed to push it back, and lost his lightsaber because he was surprised by it; Palpatine was on the pod and Yoda had just lept on it, so he likely couldn't see Palpatine and was still occupied with leaping on the pod. This time, Palpatine can't really flee and surprise Yoda.
Originally posted by truejedi
from their positions at the end of the fight? Right when Yoda decided to retreat? Obviously. That was obvious from the moment the fight ended on-screen. Palpatine was in a superior position, and too powerful at that moment for Yoda to confront.Your strongest argument is in the ROTS novelization. You haven't brought it up, so I thought i'd give it to you. Look it up. THAT'S where you want to be basing your argument, not on narratives that just repeat what we see onscreen.
And I didn't bring up the novelization because I believed it was a given that it depicted Sidious wiping the floor with Yoda.
Originally posted by Elok Quintly
Yes they do. They're further elucidating why Yoda was forced to retreat, which isn't immediately evident in the film. Additionally, they're directly stating that Palpatine was too powerful for Yoda.
Instead of being "not immediately evident in the film", those lines blatantly contradict what happens.
a) Sidious tries to run away from Yoda.
b) When they engage in a lightsaber duel, he is definetely inable to keep his superior position and probably he's even disarmed. Does that count as "being too powerful"?
c) He then assumes the high ground and starts throwing pods. What happens? Yoda forces him out of the high ground from a clear position of disadvantage. Again: Does that count as "being too powerful" on Sidious side?
d) Then Sidious cathes Yoda, who is just landing on a pod, with a force attack. Firstly, Sidious is leaning forwards with a grimasse of anger on his face. After a few seconds, Yoda appears to have gained the upper hand once again, forcing the Sith Lord to lean backwards, face turning into a grimasse of outright fear. Is that again Sidious "being too powerful"?
Let us just face it: The movie depicts Sidious being overpowered by Yoda on three different occassions when always being in a position of advantage. If he can't beat Yoda from a position of advantage, who is he going to do the same on equal ground?
To me, the interpretations are all following the novel version of the fight which shows entirely different events, rather than sticking to an analysis of the events shown in the movie. In the novel, Yoda realize that he can't defeat the Sith Lord, not because of his inability to overpower him, but rather because he couldn't negate all manouvering that Sidious has performed behind the scenes in accordance to the "new" Sith ways of stealth, backstabbing and political manouvering. So Yoda decides to quit fighting to save his own life and with that, the knowledge how to finally defeat the Emperor in the future.
EQ
And I didn't bring up the novelization because I believed it was a given that it depicted Sidious wiping the floor with Yoda.
I don't have the novelization on hand, but I remember that much of the fight came from Palpatine's own perspective -- I seem to recall the term "little green freak" being used a lot -- with the only real superiority on Palpatine's end is just that the Emperor had greater reserves of energy, which would be hard to argue against.
My only question would be if Yoda could have easily won the fight, why did he run at all?
Originally posted by Gideon
I doubt it; Palpatine didn't call them until after the duel.
Huh?
They were starting the search for Yoda while the Jedi Master was still making his way through the tunnels of the Senate. That actually implies that they were rather close to the rotunda (or had already entered it) during the final moments of the battle between Sidious and Yoda.
If I was Yoda I'd run away from Storm Troopers.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/cc/Hitler_1928_crop.jpg
They would after all, deem him a sub human piece of scum to be disposed of at Auswitch.
EDIT - Ugh, page stretch.
Originally posted by Gideon
Nai,I don't have the novelization onhand, but I know for a fact that, in it, Palpatine didn't trip the alarm that summoned the stormtroopers until after the duel ended.
To be honest: I don't recall Sidious ringing any alarm. Do you really think that nobody would notice that the Senate chamber is torn into pieces? Usually it's quite loud when you hammer several ton metal pods into the ground and collapse half the inside of a building in the process. At least enough to alarm some guards. Don't you think so?
The movie and script do not show it or make references to when they arrived.
If I'm not completely mistaken, the movie shows the guards close to Sidious who orders them to search for Yoda, right before we see the Jedi making his escape with the aid of Bail Organa. So Yoda was still running arround in the building when the guards did show up. That couldn't have been too much time from the end of the duel.
I think it's rather save to assume that the guards would have been there to enter the fight if Yoda would have attempted to get back up to continue his brawl with the Sith Lord.
Nai
To be honest: I don't recall Sidious ringing any alarm.
I'm 99.8% certain that he does in the Stover novelization. I don't have it with me, but I'll check it this weekend if nobody else does.
Nai
Do you really think that nobody would notice that the Senate chamber is torn into pieces? Usually it's quite loud when you hammer several ton metal pods into the ground and collapse half the inside of a building in the process. At least enough to alarm some guards. Don't you think so?
DS and I were discussing this on MSN and I brought this up. The Rotunda was devastated in the duel; why didn't the stormtroopers come sooner? If they'd been close, they would have been there when the pods were first being hurled.
These are highly trained shock troops; they would have investigated the second they heard the disturbance, not minutes afterwards.
Nai
If I'm not completely mistaken, the movie shows the guards close to Sidious who orders them to search for Yoda, right before we see the Jedi making his escape with the aid of Bail Organa. So Yoda was still running arround in the building when the guards did show up. That couldn't have been too much time from the end of the duel.
If I recall, you're correct: the guards were there as Yoda was making his escape. But you have to acknowledge that the Senate Building is massive; there's no indication that the exit Yoda used was extremely close to the Rotunda.
I see no discrepency here.
Nai
I think it's rather save to assume that the guards would have been there to enter the fight if Yoda would have attempted to get back up to continue his brawl with the Sith Lord.
I respectfully disagree. If the guards had been nearby, they would have logically poked their heads in long before Yoda fell from the pod; there is absolutely no reason for a delay if they had been alerted by the disturbances.
The film and screenplay are silent on this issue, so we can't assume facts not in evidence. The novelization, as I said, shows Palpatine summon his troops only after the duel ended. There is absolutely no canon reason to assume that they would have shown up had Yoda tried to re-engage.
Now, you could make the argument that Yoda himself might have assumed that, even if it didn't actually happen, but you'd have to prove it.
That aside, however, as DS pointed out on MSN: if Yoda could have easily won the fight on even ground, why would stormtroopers make a difference?
Elok: i don't believe you said anything to contradict what I have already posted, and I don't feel like repeating myself in a back and forth. I'm not discrediting your argument, its solid, but I believe it to be incorrect.
At this moment, all the sources you have posted refer to the duel we saw: At the end of it, Sidious was in a more powerful position than Yoda, and Yoda was unable to continue the duel based on his need to escape the clone-troopers. I will need a source that states Sidious was actually more powerful at the beginning of the duel before I believe otherwise. Not to say one doesn't exist, but that you haven't presented it yet.
Gideon: From the Novelization: Pg: 399
Immediately after the fight ends:
"He flicked a finger, and in the Chancellor's Podium a dozen meters away, a switch tripped and sirens sounded throughout the enormous building; another surge of the Force sent his pod streaking in a downward spiral to the holding office at the base of the Podium tower. Clone troops were already swarming into it."
So troopers were undoubtedly on their way before the alarm sounded.
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Um... "already swarming into it" could also be an intensifier in the same way that "already on it, boss" is an intensifier.Artistic license, and all that.
not at all the same. The former is a physical presence. They wouldn't have been swarming into it, if they hadn't been there.
Your latter example is something you say when someone isn't really on it, just letting someone know you are about to start.
Sids sounded the alarm, and literally seconds later clones were in the room. They absolutely HAD to have already been on their way.
