Originally posted by namorsubby
If "current" superman constitutes the past couple of years, then yeah, he does.Superman raced wally a few years back......west mustered up a lil something at the end and smoked him, but yeah, supes is more than fast enough to blitzes and subdue herc(not to mention strong enough)
Current superman =/ hercules/Thor (strength that is)
And Wally can go as fast as he wants.
Originally posted by amnesiahow do you figure?
Current superman =/ hercules/Thor (strength that is)And Wally can go as fast as he wants.
only because he taps into the speed force energy, Flash has admitted that in terms of raw speed, superman is at least even, and maybe even slighty faster than he
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff102/Wally_Respect2/supcatfla4.jpg
Originally posted by D_Dude1210
racing the flash has nothing to do with combat speed... :-/
"When you said it is all technique, you may as well have said that strength is useless. Otherwise you wouldn't have said that. If you believe that strength training is important, then you obviously believe there is more to it than just technique, otherwise why bother doing anything other than training your technique?"
I said it's all ABOUT technique. Not once did I say that strength doesn't come into play. You taking my comment to the extreme is like me accusing you of saying that technique is useless. But I know you didn't say that and I'm not gonna try to put words in your mouth.
In this thread, we are havin g the Marvelites claiming Herc is as strong as Supes and the DC camp (which includes me) saying he is not. That is a subject that will go on forever here and something I don't want to get involved in here. So, ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL, skill in Wrestling comes into play.
"And yes I have watched "Royce Gracie"(the correct spelling of his name) beat people who outweighed him by a good bit more. That was also back in the infancy of MMA. Now that everyone cross trains, he is useless. I would say that Royce Gracie is better at subs and sub defense than Matt Hughes, but that didn't stop Hughes from applying an arm bar on Gracie, because Hughes was just so much stronger he could effectively force his way into the arm bar...."
I never stated that Gracie was undefeated, did I? Regardless if Gracie was doing it in MMA's infancy, he was making bigger men tap out. Regularly. Royce was doing his damage in '93 and '94, while Hughes was still in high school in '92. Besides, Hughes was a wrestling champion, highly skilled in his own right. That doesn't take away the fact that Gracie was making big men (which includes my man, Kimo from Hawaii) tap out. So, Hughes catching Gracie in an arm bar is besides the point I was trying to make.
Your analagy about Bruce Lee is, in the same way, a moot point, whether I agree with you or not. He did what he did to the stuntmen, who were much bigger and stronger than him. BTW, Bruce Lee also incorporated wrestling technique into Jeet Kune Do, thereby establishing the value of wrestling skills in his eyes.
"Like I said if this was just a skills contest, herc wins hands down. But it isn't. Your skills and physical attributes are both in play."
This is where you and I are in complete agreement. The only difference is that I am looking at the fight on even terms (again, not to add to the fire about who is stronger) where you are giving props to Supes superior stats.
Originally posted by Mshinu
Supes is not stronger than the God of Strength..And in a ground fight skill>endurance>strength>>speed.
Sups is screwed and better tap out unless he is a fan of broken limbs. He`d do better as a luchador(sp?), especially with that outfit 😛
Proof that Hercs is stronger? Most people agree that hercs is on Thors level in strength. Most people also agree that Superman is stronger than Thor. QED. Obviously you disagree with that though, which is fine, as everyone is entitled their opinion.
I would put skill=strength>endurance>speed. The other thing is that while speed may be the least important, Superman has so much more of it that it is a huge advantage. More than enough to counteract his skills deficit. Also Superman isn't exactly an idiot. He trains multiple Martial Arts.
Originally posted by BerserkersRage
"When you said it is all technique, you may as well have said that strength is useless. Otherwise you wouldn't have said that. If you believe that strength training is important, then you obviously believe there is more to it than just technique, otherwise why bother doing anything other than training your technique?"I said it's all ABOUT technique. Not once did I say that strength doesn't come into play. You taking my comment to the extreme is like me accusing you of saying that technique is useless. But I know you didn't say that and I'm not gonna try to put words in your mouth.
In this thread, we are havin g the Marvelites claiming Herc is as strong as Supes and the DC camp (which includes me) saying he is not. That is a subject that will go on forever here and something I don't want to get involved in here. So, ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL, skill in Wrestling comes into play.
"And yes I have watched "Royce Gracie"(the correct spelling of his name) beat people who outweighed him by a good bit more. That was also back in the infancy of MMA. Now that everyone cross trains, he is useless. I would say that Royce Gracie is better at subs and sub defense than Matt Hughes, but that didn't stop Hughes from applying an arm bar on Gracie, because Hughes was just so much stronger he could effectively force his way into the arm bar...."
I never stated that Gracie was undefeated, did I? Regardless if Gracie was doing it in MMA's infancy, he was making bigger men tap out. Regularly. Royce was doing his damage in '93 and '94, while Hughes was still in high school in '92. Besides, Hughes was a wrestling champion, highly skilled in his own right. That doesn't take away the fact that Gracie was making big men (which includes my man, Kimo from Hawaii) tap out. So, Hughes catching Gracie in an arm bar is besides the point I was trying to make.
Your analagy about Bruce Lee is, in the same way, a moot point, whether I agree with you or not. He did what he did to the stuntmen, who were much bigger and stronger than him. BTW, Bruce Lee also incorporated wrestling technique into Jeet Kune Do, thereby establishing the value of wrestling skills in his eyes.
"Like I said if this was just a skills contest, herc wins hands down. But it isn't. Your skills and physical attributes are both in play."
This is where you and I are in complete agreement. The only difference is that I am looking at the fight on even terms (again, not to add to the fire about who is stronger) where you are giving props to Supes superior stats.
I understand that Gracie was tapping out bigger men. Men who had no training whatsoever. But superman is an experienced martial artist in his own right, so I just don't think it is coming to come down to pure skill.
Originally posted by Mshinu
I`d give this to Herc even if Supes was twice as strong as him (which he isn`t).
An experienced wrestler can very easily dominate someone who has superior "stats", at least in a match like this.Speed is pretty irrelevant, grappling is a game of chess not a race.
Yes speed is pretty irrelevant in a grappling match in human terms. That is because we humans are all fairly close in speed. That is not the case here. If you put someone in a wrestling match who could literally run behind you before you could react, he would dominate his weight class. He would easily be a national champion.
