Gotta say though, for an almost 3-year-old thread, that was also my first time putting down all of the thoughts at once and in writing, I think my OP holds up fairly well. I'd re-write the bit on "faith" needed on both sides - because I think some of it is wrong, or at least worded in a way that can easily lead to misunderstanding. But 3 more years of internet debate, occasionally forays into novels or videos on either side of the debate, and living in the heart of the Midwest...and I haven't found a need to retract any of it.
Obviously people will disagree. But it's a point of pride for me, albeit a small point.
I'm shocked that I didn't look at the OP sooner. You have an incredibly false premise on why you are atheist.
The Jesus Myth - I don't doubt Jesus' existence, but parallels and similarities can be drawn between his story and literally hundreds of others. Any mythological scholarship will point toward the idea of shared stories, motifs, and themes within savior myths and hero tales. Jesus is no different. As metaphor, I feel as though Jesus' story stands very well as a motivation and guide. As literal truth, I feel it is absurd, based on nothing but an archaic book written by superstitious and scientifically uninformed mystics and priests. Most Christians have no problem accepting Old Testament stories as metaphor, not literal truth. This is simply the next step.
This same baloney has been spewed in countless sensationalist novels and films for years, including Acharya S. and her works, Jordan Maxwell and his works, Peter Joseph (the maker of Zeitgeist) and his works, and etc.
Here is a great video debunking the notion that Jesus' story was based on any pagan god:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hP7-GPW9A8U
At the 8:38 mark, they start talking about it. I highly recommend this series of videos. This is only part 2 of 6. Again, I highly recommend watching the entire series from 1 to 6. It does a wonderful job debunking the notion that true Christian customs (that did NOT come from the Roman Catholic Church) are from pagan sources.
And one last thing: If Jesus and His resurrection was a myth, why did all the apostles die for what they supposedly knew to be a lie? And why is the Bible banned in 52 countries?
Originally posted by Bat Dude
And one last thing: If Jesus and His resurrection was a myth, why did all the apostles die for what they supposedly knew to be a lie? And why is the Bible banned in 52 countries?
I can certainly play devil's advocate on this one and answer those for you.
Your argument can be turned upside down into a very offense reply:
If the Muslim Extremists are wrong in their beliefs, why do some of them die for those beliefs? Why are some of the more extreme Muslim beliefs illegal in many countries (some forms of Sharia law, for example).
You should never persuade people with those types of arguments. It should always be kind suggestions of faith and prayer.
Originally posted by dadudemon
I can certainly play devil's advocate on this one and answer those for you.Your argument can be turned upside down into a very offense reply:
If the Muslim Extremists are wrong in their beliefs, why do some of them die for those beliefs? Why are some of the more extreme Muslim beliefs illegal in many countries (some forms of Sharia law, for example).
The problem with that reply would be that the fundamental Muslims did not create their religion, they just follow it.
The apostles on the other hand (in this scenario) would have been the writers of the "Jesus myth" and would know with 100% certainty that it was a lie that they created by just mixing Mithras and Horus and etc. to create Jesus.
They are two completely different scenarios. Now if you had said that Mohammed was martyred for his faith (which, of course, he wasn't), it would have been a similar scenario.
Originally posted by Bat Dude
The problem with that reply would be that the fundamental Muslims did not create their religion, they just follow it.The apostles on the other hand (in this scenario) would have been the writers of the "Jesus myth" and would know with 100% certainty that it was a lie that they created by just mixing Mithras and Horus and etc. to create Jesus.
They are two completely different scenarios. Now if you had said that Mohammed was martyred for his faith (which, of course, he wasn't), it would have been a similar scenario.
To me, your argument here makes it even worse.
Those people are dying for a belief they didn't even create.
Unlike those liar Apostles who made up their religion and did not want their pride to be destroyed by admitting they made it all up.
For the Muslim Zealots, at least, they can always just give up their beliefs once it gets too tough. They have not monetary and power-loss to experience if they give up their religion (most of them).
So, by your logic, the Muslim Extremists have the one-true religion.
Obviously, that won't fly. Obviously, neither you nor the rest of us believe that Muslim Extremism is the "One True Religion."
Originally posted by Bat Dude
And why is the Bible banned in 52 countries?
Source?
EDIT: oh, and the bewilderingly simple answers to these questions are:
Originally posted by Bat Dude
And one last thing: If Jesus and His resurrection was a myth, why did all the apostles die for what they supposedly knew to be a lie? And why is the Bible banned in 52 countries?
a) For so much as we can believe the stories about the apostles, we would expect them to behave according to what they believed, /slow clap. This is no better than saying "I believe, therefore, proof", at best.
b) Christians are persecuted minorities in many nations. Chapters has banned books written by pedophiles, do we take this as evidence that all people should touch children?
I remember him telling me once that it was "obvious" that Christianity was the true religion and that the Bible was all truth because--this is where it gets good--there's "clearly" a New Age conspiracy against Christianity and Christians are being persecuted worldwide. Of course what complicates this is that Bat Dude doesn't believe that Catholics or Eastern Orthodox Christians are real Christians. I have no idea how many Bat Dude-approved Christians there are, who knows--maybe he's right and the "real" Christians are a "persecuted" cult of about fifty people living in a compound somewhere in Western Texas.
Originally posted by Omega Vision
I remember him telling me once that it was "obvious" that Christianity was the true religion and that the Bible was all truth because--this is where it gets good--there's "clearly" a New Age conspiracy against Christianity and Christians are being persecuted worldwide. Of course what complicates this is that Bat Dude doesn't believe that Catholics or Eastern Orthodox Christians are real Christians. I have no idea how many Bat Dude-approved Christians there are, who knows--maybe he's right and the "real" Christians are a "persecuted" cult of about fifty people living in a compound somewhere in Western Texas.
so when he says "52 nations have banned the bible", he could be including predominantly Christian nations that ban specific versions as well?