Atheism

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
It must have been you who originally posted it, I take. Someone posted it here a few years ago and I found a new favourite channel.

Yeah, likely me. Glad I could help out. 😊

I came to a similar conclusion as Penn at one point though. All (reasonable) theistic claims come prefaced with a silent "We don't know for sure, but..." So if they say "I believe in God," it's really "We don't know for sure, but I believe in God." Same for atheists. I don't know for sure, but I lack a belief (or don't believe, depending on your word choice).

Even if they don't consciously think that, if you press most people, they'll admit as much. So the base of all of it is agnosticism.

I love both QualiaSoup and TheraminTrees....except that they don't update often enough.

Penn actually summed that up nicely.

I hadn't considered it that way (agnosticism being an epistemic position and atheism a theological one), but it sounds about right.

Maybe one day more people will come to this view, or something similar to it, and we won't have as many ridiculous debates about agnosticism being more logical than atheism or vice versa.

Just had a nice debate on astrology and ghosts with some coworkers. Normally I avoid such discussions, but they specifically drew me in. I don't pull punches when I start, though, so it's always fun.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Maybe one day more people will come to this view, or something similar to it, and we won't have as many ridiculous debates about agnosticism being more logical than atheism or vice versa.

Yeah. It always struck me as odd how many people see atheism as an absolute position on the existence of a deity. It relates to the problem of people who conflate a lack of belief with close-mindedness. Always one of my biggest pet peeves in religious debates.

Originally posted by Digi
Just had a nice debate on astrology and ghosts with some coworkers. Normally I avoid such discussions, but they specifically drew me in. I don't pull punches when I start, though, so it's always fun.

Yeah. It always struck me as odd how many people see atheism as an absolute position on the existence of a deity. It relates to the problem of people who conflate a lack of belief with close-mindedness. Always one of my biggest pet peeves in religious debates.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Have you ever talked to any agnostics who think that agnosticism somehow covers both bases on the theological front?

Not specifically, no. I'm sure they're out there.

Most of the agnostics I know are basically just apathetic toward religion, but never pursued it enough to care about labeling themselves or figuring out exactly what they believe. Some are annoyed when people don't have much depth to their beliefs. But it's the practical application of the "we can't know" concept, so I see that approach, and a lack of rigor concerning one's beliefs, as totally consistent with true agnosticism.

I'm a zealous apatheist. Anything that uses words like 'total disinterest' is right up my alley.

Had a nice conversation with someone in the organization I work for, who is still a largely closeted atheist. I may actually be helping him with that process with his family, since it was a process I had to go through (and it wasn't always smooth). Hopefully I don't make things any harder for him. Fingers crossed...

Luke 24:25 states that all who do not believe ALL that the prophets have spoken are fools I guess you fit this profile.
How sad.

Okie

Originally posted by Okieshowedem
Luke 24:25 states that all who do not believe ALL that the prophets have spoken are fools I guess you fit this profile.
How sad.

Okie

At least he doesn't worship the Satan like you do 😬

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
At least he doesn't worship the Satan like you do 😬

You have the right to be wrong if you so choose.
Knowing who Satan is makes one wise you really should find out who and what Satan really is.

Okie

Originally posted by Okieshowedem
Luke 24:25 states that all who do not believe ALL that the prophets have spoken are fools I guess you fit this profile.
How sad.

Okie

This is trolling, insulting, and the lowest possible form of debate (if can even be called that). And also un-Christian, if I may add. 😉

Anyway, have an adult conversation with us or gtfo.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/20/religion-map-congress_n_3785117.html?ncid=edlinkusaolp00000009

435 Representatives, 1 atheist. 31 total religions, though admittedly most of them are some variation of Christian. This matters to some of the Christians themselves, but from the outside looks like one big Christian blob.

I've written out my severity/prevalence diatribe more than once. The severity of mistrust or discrimination against atheists isn't anywhere near that of other traditionally repressed groups. But the prevalence - i.e. the total percentage societally - of those who mistrust atheists is higher than literally any other demographic, religious or otherwise. Only a handful of brief periods in the last 50 years has this not been the case (like with Muslims after 9/11 or the Tea Party during the last election cycle), and even then, atheists only enjoyed a brief respite as the #2 most mistrusted.

Obviously this is a minor data point in a larger whole. But it continues to repeat the point that we're a long way from general acceptance and religious parity in the US. Once the LGBT finally breaks through, I feel like this is the next big bogeyman. And yes, I realize there's a lot of work to be done with LGBT acceptance...we're decades away. But I'm looking pretty far ahead here.

Originally posted by Digi
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/20/religion-map-congress_n_3785117.html?ncid=edlinkusaolp00000009

435 Representatives, 1 atheist. 31 total religions, though admittedly most of them are some variation of Christian. This matters to some of the Christians themselves, but from the outside looks like one big Christian blob.

I've written out my severity/prevalence diatribe more than once. The severity of mistrust or discrimination against atheists isn't anywhere near that of other traditionally repressed groups. But the prevalence - i.e. the total percentage societally - of those who mistrust atheists is higher than literally any other demographic, religious or otherwise. Only a handful of brief periods in the last 50 years has this not been the case (like with Muslims after 9/11 or the Tea Party during the last election cycle), and even then, atheists only enjoyed a brief respite as the #2 most mistrusted.

You may be onto something.

But I think the bias is also there against Mormons and the bias strongly favors Jews. So I am going to do some math to see if there is a bias there.

62.2% of Utahans is Mormon. 26% of Idahoans are Mormon. It should be no surprise that states that were largely "colonized" by Mormons would have representatives that are Mormon.

But does that really stack up to representation? About 2% of the population is Mormon.

7 out of 100 of the senate are Mormon. 7% < --- Over representation. However, take out Idaho and Utah. 3 (Hatch, Crapo (I shit you not (pun)), Lee). Now we are down to 4. That's much closer to 2% and the + or - 2 various is well within an expected variance meaning it is not statistically significant for four non-Utah-Idaho Mormons to be in congress. They just had a good election year because of Romney in 2012.

10 out of 440 of the House are Mormon. 10/440 is roughly 2%. That's fair. But, again, take out Idaho and Utah to remove the skew. 2 from Idaho and 4 from Utah. Now we are down to 4. 4/440 is 1%. That's still within an acceptable tolerance but it is starting to get a bit skewed.

All in all, I am okay with Mormon representation in Congress. My hunch was wrong. Gasp!

So, in other words, suck it you dirty atheist: the Mormons win, this time!
😈 😈 😈

[QUOTE=14433103]Originally posted by Digi
[B]Obviously this is a minor data point in a larger whole. But it continues to repeat the point that we're a long way from general acceptance and religious parity in the US. Once the LGBT finally breaks through, I feel like this is the next big bogeyman. And yes, I realize there's a lot of work to be done with LGBT acceptance...we're decades away. But I'm looking pretty far ahead here.

Most definitely. I am with you, here. I think the reason you'll see more action from the LGBT community is that we already have a nice representation of the LGBT community in congress! 😄 😄: 😄 They just refuse to come out of the closet.

More seriously, I am seeing a backlash against the ultra-conservatives that, quite frankly, hate on the LGBT community. I am seeing things like, "Jesus did not teach hate, He taught love. Love your LGBT friends and don't judge" being stated by lots of different groups of Christians (that was a paraphrase). Additionally, there seems to be a recent wave of LGBT participation in religion (more than just Christianity). I think this partially has to do with the backlash against the hate from the religious community.

I have no numbers to back this up, only my personal observation.

Originally posted by Digi
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/20/religion-map-congress_n_3785117.html?ncid=edlinkusaolp00000009

435 Representatives, 1 atheist. 31 total religions, though admittedly most of them are some variation of Christian. This matters to some of the Christians themselves, but from the outside looks like one big Christian blob.

I've written out my severity/prevalence diatribe more than once. The severity of mistrust or discrimination against atheists isn't anywhere near that of other traditionally repressed groups. But the prevalence - i.e. the total percentage societally - of those who mistrust atheists is higher than literally any other demographic, religious or otherwise. Only a handful of brief periods in the last 50 years has this not been the case (like with Muslims after 9/11 or the Tea Party during the last election cycle), and even then, atheists only enjoyed a brief respite as the #2 most mistrusted.

Obviously this is a minor data point in a larger whole. But it continues to repeat the point that we're a long way from general acceptance and religious parity in the US. Once the LGBT finally breaks through, I feel like this is the next big bogeyman. And yes, I realize there's a lot of work to be done with LGBT acceptance...we're decades away. But I'm looking pretty far ahead here.

The smartest man who ever lived, Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, was an atheist.

1960's America, back right after war had pushed America to the scientific and technological forefront, after plenty of baby-booming veterans returned to fuel its progression, still saw distrust of unconventional practices like atheism.

Then all of the sudden; "one congressman asked an important question: "Will we find God with this machine? If so, I will vote for it." The poor physicist at the hearing was thrown by the question and failed to give a convincing answer, and the SSC was soon cancelled - the whole business of digging a hole for the SSC and filling it in cost $2bn of US taxpayers' money."

"After that cancellation [of the Superconducting Super Collider in Texas, after $2 billion had been spent on it], we physicists learned that we have to sing for our supper. ... The Cold War is over. You can't simply say 'Russia!' to Congress, and they whip out their checkbook and say, 'How much?' We have to tell the people why this atom-smasher is going to benefit their lives."

AND IT HAPPENED AGAIN!!!??!!! 😠 😠 😠

There is an urgency to progress the sciences and forget about pre-AD Roma libertarian scare tactics like Christianity, the story of Jesus was designed to liberate mistreated denizens of the ancient world. Science now, can liberate people in generating the world's first post-scarcity economy; and, potentially a nation-less society without war.

Religion seems to evoke illiterate scientific minds, Goethe saw this and became an Atheist. He adhered to the philosophical mindset of the Italian Renaissance, and we need that mindset now more than ever to put our overly abundant resources to use.

The nation has trillions of hours of free-time and the world-wide web at our disposal to collaborate on massive scientific, political, and economic projects and underpinnings.

The issue is that this resource will most likely be used to spread religious communities; spreading dogmatic moral and political rhetoric, and not be put to use in fixing the world's problems by sharing insight that is actually useful - scientific expertise.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Most definitely. I am with you, here. I think the reason you'll see more action from the LGBT community is that we already have a nice representation of the LGBT community in congress! 😄 😄: 😄 They just refuse to come out of the closet.

More seriously, I am seeing a backlash against the ultra-conservatives that, quite frankly, hate on the LGBT community. I am seeing things like, "Jesus did not teach hate, He taught love. Love your LGBT friends and don't judge" being stated by lots of different groups of Christians (that was a paraphrase). Additionally, there seems to be a recent wave of LGBT participation in religion (more than just Christianity). I think this partially has to do with the backlash against the hate from the religious community.

I have no numbers to back this up, only my personal observation.

Well, you're right in a sense...there's more participation across the board. Not just in Congress, not just in religion. It's really been a national coming out party, even though there's a long way to go.

My comments on atheist mistrust were only tangentially related to the numbers in Congress, though. You can find hate against ANY group, religious or otherwise. But even if Mormons are underrepresented at a given historical point, the prevalence of mistrust isn't the same. Now, I do think there's a slight penalty, per se, nationwide for being Mormon...but we're talking about a marginal amount. It's the reason the Republicans could nominate a Mormon in the last election, but we're probably several decades away from an atheist even being able to consider it (perhaps longer).

I do think the low numbers in the House are somewhat related to general mistrust, but atheism isn't the biggest demographic to begin with. Still, with over 400 members, and somewhere between 2-3% of the population, we might expect 8-10 at the moment if we were being totally equal and representative.

Originally posted by Digi
Well, you're right in a sense...there's more participation across the board. Not just in Congress, not just in religion. It's really been a national coming out party, even though there's a long way to go.

[QUOTE=14433326]Originally posted by Digi
[B]My comments on atheist mistrust were only tangentially related to the numbers in Congress, though. You can find hate against ANY group, religious or otherwise. But even if Mormons are underrepresented at a given historical point, the prevalence of mistrust isn't the same.

Until Atheists and/or agnostics experience a fully legal "kill" order from a US Governer (reminds me of Order 66 from Star wars and it even has a similar name of "Order 44"😉, and are driven from their homes in thousands, atheists cannot say they have "hate" that compares to the hate of other groups like Mormons or Native Americans.

But, currently, I agree with your post. There is just not a comparable amount of mistrust and "those Mermans are evillll" anymore compared to our atheist counterparts.

Originally posted by Digi
Now, I do think there's a slight penalty, per se, nationwide for being Mormon...but we're talking about a marginal amount. It's the reason the Republicans could nominate a Mormon in the last election, but we're probably several decades away from an atheist even being able to consider it (perhaps longer).

Going back, it wasn't a marginal amount. It was quite significant. If you remove the outliers (because of the population that are Mormon in those states), Mormonism has been vastly underrepresented in Congress forever. I would like to think Romney had something to do with the upsurge in Mormon representation in congress, recently.

Originally posted by Digi
I do think the low numbers in the House are somewhat related to general mistrust, but atheism isn't the biggest demographic to begin with. Still, with over 400 members, and somewhere between 2-3% of the population, we might expect 8-10 at the moment if we were being totally equal and representative.

I think those numbers reveal another problem about the atheist community. The most common atheist is a single white male who makes less money than his peers and lives alone (I posted this study on various religions in the US a couple of years back...but i could not "refind it"😉. They also struggle with depression. They were also more educated than their religious peers and knew more about other religions than their religious peers (you know about that one, from Pew).

Based on this, it would be more difficult for that demographic to break into politics which requires massive connections. Obviously, there are massive amounts of exceptions to the most "typical atheist". I'd like to see those activists get into congress.

To me, it is a numbers game and a personality game.

Why don't you do something for public office? How are you oration skills?

Side note but more on topic: I have noticed that many of my Mormon brethren have atheist friends. I am far from the exception and, instead, have quite the odd amount of atheist friends. Why is this? Is there some sort of commonality between our two groups that makes communication and comfort easier between "our people"? I will say that our mutual belief (fact, bitches) that the bible is flawed (as well as anything written by man) is a decent starting point but I never see that conversation happen.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Until Atheists and/or agnostics experience a fully legal "kill" order from a US Governer (reminds me of Order 66 from Star wars and it even has a similar name of "Order 44"😉, and are driven from their homes in thousands, atheists cannot say they have "hate" that compares to the hate of other groups like Mormons or Native Americans.

What problems have Mormons had in the last hundred years? The last fifty years? The last decade?

Its still illegal for atheists to hold public office in many states and there is a major political movement in this country that effective mandates that all political hopefuls be explicitly religious or face massive organized opposition. Mormons are, you know, putting up presidential candidates within that movement.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I think those numbers reveal another problem about the atheist community. The most common atheist is a single white male who makes less money than his peers and lives alone (I posted this study on various religions in the US a couple of years back...but i could not "refind it"😉. They also struggle with depression. They were also more educated than their religious peers and knew more about other religions than their religious peers (you know about that one, from Pew).

Based on this, it would be more difficult for that demographic to break into politics which requires massive connections. Obviously, there are massive amounts of exceptions to the most "typical atheist". I'd like to see those activists get into congress.

To me, it is a numbers game and a personality game.

In totally unrelated news: Black people stopped being congenitally illiterate right about the time it became legal to teach them how to read. A coincidence I'm sure.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
What problems have Mormons had in the last hundred years? The last fifty years? The last decade?

You are clearly bothered by my post. Don't fret too much. I think as soon as the "Ride the Romney coattails" dies down, Mormon representation in congress will be underrepresented, once more.

Additionally, what I stated about the history of Mormonism is not something you can just handwaive as "in the past." There are those folks who I go to church with that are old enough to have still been around when persecution was still strong (and violent) and, no, they are not even 80.

Additionally, until I see multiple anti-atheism rallies where symbols of Atheism are burned in the streets and people show up in the thousands to protest atheism, you cannot really compare yourself to the anti-Mormon movement in the US. You don't have it that bad, sorry.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Its still illegal for atheists to hold public office in many states and there is a major political movement in this country that effective mandates that all political hopefuls be explicitly religious or face massive organized opposition. Mormons are, you know, putting up presidential candidates within that movement.

You mean "religious tests for office" which are archaic, contemporarily uninforced laws, that obviously are unconstituational and would be thrown out if the situation came up? Yeah, that's just not the same thing as a "kill on sight" order. You martyr, you.

And, yeah, that same discrimination is still there for Mormons. Outside states with massive LDS population there is almost no representation (exclude any state with less than 15% LDS population and I don't there any state has an LDS representative).

So keep pretending you are a martyr when you are an educated, white, middle class (possibly better?) male. 313

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
In totally unrelated news: Black people stopped being congenitally illiterate right about the time it became legal to teach them how to read. A coincidence I'm sure.

You're right: that's totally unrelated. 🙂