Originally posted by dadudemon
Well, as a necessity, "a being that transcendds time and space" must be eternal. Regardless of whether or not such a being takes a massively proactive participation role or not is what I am debating with Christians and other theists.
Not as a necessity, as a possibility. To presume we know the rules beyond our reality - if such a thing exists - is delusional.
Originally posted by Digi
Not as a necessity, as a possibility.
No, as a necessity. That's not a spiritual statement, that's a physics statement.
To put it another way, for that particular definition, that trait or quality must be present.
Originally posted by Digi
To presume we know the rules beyond our reality - if such a thing exists - is delusional.
Speak for yourself: I'm a Mormon and we think we can become gods, ourselves. uhuh
Originally posted by dadudemon
No, as a necessity. That's not a spiritual statement, that's a physics statement.To put it another way, for that particular definition, that trait or quality must be present.
Where physics no longer apply, I'd still say it's complete speculation.
At best, you have a potentially-proven quality of a still entirely hypothetical being. At worst, you have a hopeful guess about a completely unsupported idea.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Speak for yourself: I'm a Mormon and we think we can become gods, ourselves. uhuh
Which also repurposes the word "god" ...moves the goalposts, as the saying goes. We probably could, somehow. The Singularity is a fun thing to think about, and what it could lead to. But we'd only be gods in a very general sense of the word.
If it weren't for me, none of you would be talking about the singularity right now.
You're talking about a posteriori God when you say a technological singularity ran the computer simulation that is this universe or something akin to that. That's woo woo, not religion. There is no incentive to obey a set of moral guide lines like the Ten Commandments.
The singularity might not happen, the physical world as we know it could suddenly change, rendering science useless. Jesus could come down from the clouds and put the fear of God into atheists. When it comes right down to it, a priori theologies like Christianity aren't necessarily right or wrong, they're a choice one makes to commit to be a better quality of person. There is nothing more appealing to me than being blessed by God, except being admitted into the Kingdom. Think of being the clandestine prodigy, the elite, because you've been blessed. Because you're, like Achilles was, loved by the gods (God). He smiles down upon you and you are empowered by Him.
Originally posted by Digi
Where physics no longer apply, I'd still say it's complete speculation.
We've definitely modeled without time.
Originally posted by Digi
Which also repurposes the word "god" ...moves the goalposts, as the saying goes. We probably could, somehow. The Singularity is a fun thing to think about, and what it could lead to. But we'd only be gods in a very general sense of the word.
Huh?
I think you meant to quote Dolos. Mormons believe we can ascend to Godhood and be everything God is: a timeless, eternal, virtually omnipotent being.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Mormons believe we can ascend to Godhood and be everything God is: a timeless, eternal, virtually omnipotent being.
Really!?
Okay, well anyway, don't attribute that to accelerating returns, I don't think computers, science, biological manipulation/tampering, and technological leaps are major themes in the Mormon Bible. However, in Christianity, by default, success is attributed to the blessing of God as Satan will only make you successful to convert you and crush you. Which could be technology, current society. But that is not stated in the bible, so that falls into the scientifically falsified, illogical, woo woo that I understand is ridiculous and irrational kind of statement or belief.
Originally posted by Dolos
Really!?Okay, well anyway, don't attribute that to accelerating returns, I don't think computers, science, biological manipulation/tampering, and technological leaps are major themes in the Mormon Bible. However, in Christianity, by default, success is attributed to the blessing of God as Satan will only make you successful to convert you and crush you. Which could be technology, current society. But that is not stated in the bible, so that falls into the scientifically falsified, illogical, woo woo that I understand is ridiculous and irrational kind of statement or belief.
There is an online group of Mormons that think the Godhood thing will happen THROUGH the singularlity.
Secular, Humanist, Mormons. I mean, holy...wtf?
Anthony Flew - The Honest Ex-Atheist
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbyTwmaJArU
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=448058&pagenumber=428#post14470015
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=533188&pagenumber=127#post14470011
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=448058&pagenumber=428#post14465073
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=448058&pagenumber=428#post14464614
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=14457001#post14457001
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=14456688#post14456688
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=533188&pagenumber=123#post14456625
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=521531&pagenumber=9#post14449701
JIA, why are you using a scientist's conversion? Why do you use what the Bible says to be unfalsifiable as your religious guide, yet go and use all this falsifiable "science" and attribute Biblical meaning to it?
I'd encourage you to read the previous page, and to stop using a finite scientific understanding to postulate the likelihood of God to convert people. Not telling you to do that, just suggesting.
This is how I would attempt to talk someone into learning the Bible and, perhaps, take steps toward being a Disciple:
You are poo-pooing religion because it is unscientific, my main point of confliction with that line of thought is that being unscientific on a "choosing to be ignorant"-level doesn't necessarily prevent a person from doing science on a practical-level; and that religion helps people in ways science can't, and vice versa.I don't think this "willful ignorance", or an altruistic and positively driven morality that is necessarily based on an unlikely or even contradictory worldview, is so terribly bad. It means one's at least aware enough to not let it inhibit the creative potential of an intelligent and mind through science. At the same time, this mind is given a whole community of spiritual and loving people (so long as they represent the non-extremist majority of theists) who'll help him to uphold these moral guidelines, and make this person all the more better for society - I know for me this will help me avoid forming false "woo woo" absolutes when looking at things like non-locality or as I have in the past.
I think that attributing a sense meaning in pure science is a lot like spirituality, in that it doesn't really prevent us from becoming set in our ways. That can be bad for people like me, who are given to egocentricism, who pursue vain agendas (this is exactly what the Bible refers to as idolatry).
Ironically, I'm in error either way: If I'm theistic, I'm accepting the existence of things that are not only unsubstantiated, but scientifically falsified; but, if I'm an atheist, I am forming a view of the world that's based on rejecting the simple fact that even these falsities can be falsified.
By being an "insincere" scientist, I am doing science only out of necessity; whereas my beliefs may be unscientific, my work is very scientific in that the process of the scientific method is upheld regardless of my belief. There's a difference between practice and belief, one's scientific literacy can be in a purely practical sense, whereas their true beliefs are non-practical. The work in and of itself can still benefit society, and therefore my belief-system does not have to conflict with my ability to do science, because my work still bares out scientifically verifiable results.
Why is it a good thing to be like this, though? One's intellect and creativity can benefit two mediums (science and religion) - that are both beneficial to society in their own right. Religion benefits people in ways science can't, science benefits people in ways religion can't. Perhaps if more people were choosing to be illogically two-faced like me, than the world would be a better place.
I would not make a pseudo-scientific claim that suggests a sort of necessity for God's existence based on a rudimentary understanding of science.
The one thing you need to understand about science, is that is all potentially falsifiable. Every last bit of it.
Originally posted by Dolos
JIA, why are you using a scientist's conversion? Why do you use what the Bible says to be unfalsifiable as your religious guide, yet go and use all this falsifiable "science" and attribute Biblical meaning to it?I'd encourage you to read the previous page, and to stop using a finite scientific understanding to postulate the likelihood of God to convert people. Not telling you to do that, just suggesting.
This is how I would attempt to talk someone into learning the Bible and, perhaps, take steps toward being a Disciple:
I would not make a pseudo-scientific claim that suggests a sort of necessity for God's existence based on a rudimentary understanding of science.
The one thing you need to understand about science, is that is all potentially falsifiable. Every last bit of it.
Mark 5:19
However, Jesus did not permit him, but said to him, “Go home to your friends, and tell them what great things the Lord has done for you, and how He has had compassion on you.”
It's Scriptural to tell people what great things the Lord has done for us.
Why not use a scientist?
Are scientists somehow barred from expressing faith in God?
Science and the Bible, God, or spiritual truth are not mutually exclusive, but mutually compatible since God's laws of nature are empirically verifiable, testable, and useful.
Oh, you want the real reason?
Because God loves you and everyone reading this post.
Because I love you and everyone reading this post.
Anthony Flew - The Honest Ex-Atheist
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbyTwmaJArU
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=448058&pagenumber=428#post14470015
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=533188&pagenumber=127#post14470011
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=448058&pagenumber=428#post14465073
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=448058&pagenumber=428#post14464614
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=14457001#post14457001
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=14456688#post14456688
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=533188&pagenumber=123#post14456625
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=521531&pagenumber=9#post14449701
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=552808&pagenumber=6#post14470577
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=448058&pagenumber=428#post14470540
John Lennox Vs. Richard Dawkins (Christianity Vs. Atheism)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RbAtCb9K_zs
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=533188&pagenumber=128#post14470535
The Intersection of Science and Religion - Craig Hazen, PhD
Scientists can express their love of nature and the world around them, and religious scientists can express their love of God through this nature that has been provided for them, but the world around them is Physical, not Spiritual.
Science and the Bible, God, or spiritual truth are not mutually exclusive, but mutually compatible since God's laws of nature are empirically verifiable, testable, and useful.They are incompatible, by very definition, the supernatural is unquantifiable and unfalsifiable. If you want to say Jesus exists, than you are erroneous to assert that his existence is compatible with science in that it is unfalsifiable, and science is only falsifiable.
Originally posted by Dolos
JIA, why are you using a scientist's conversion? Why do you use what the Bible says to be unfalsifiable as your religious guide, yet go and use all this falsifiable "science" and attribute Biblical meaning to it?I'd encourage you to read the previous page, and to stop using a finite scientific understanding to postulate the likelihood of God to convert people. Not telling you to do that, just suggesting.
This is how I would attempt to talk someone into learning the Bible and, perhaps, take steps toward being a Disciple:
I would not make a pseudo-scientific claim that suggests a sort of necessity for God's existence based on a rudimentary understanding of science.
The one thing you need to understand about science, is that is all potentially falsifiable. Every last bit of it.
Mark 5:19
However, Jesus did not permit him, but said to him, “Go home to your friends, and tell them what great things the Lord has done for you, and how He has had compassion on you.”
It's Scriptural to tell people what great things the Lord has done for us.
Why not use a scientist?
Are scientists somehow barred from expressing faith in God?
Science and the Bible, God, or spiritual truth are not mutually exclusive, but mutually compatible since God's laws of nature are empirically verifiable, testable, and useful.
Oh, you want the real reason?
Because God loves you and everyone reading this post.
Because I love you and everyone reading this post.
Anthony Flew - The Honest Ex-Atheist
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbyTwmaJArU
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=448058&pagenumber=428#post14470015
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=533188&pagenumber=127#post14470011
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=448058&pagenumber=428#post14465073
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=448058&pagenumber=428#post14464614
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=14457001#post14457001
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=14456688#post14456688
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=533188&pagenumber=123#post14456625
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=521531&pagenumber=9#post14449701
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=552808&pagenumber=6#post14470577
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=448058&pagenumber=428#post14470540
John Lennox Vs. Richard Dawkins (Christianity Vs. Atheism)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RbAtCb9K_zs
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=533188&pagenumber=128#post14470535
The Intersection of Science and Religion - Craig Hazen, PhD
Scientists can express their love of nature and the world around them, and religious scientists can express their love of God through this nature that has been provided for them, but the world around them is Physical, not Spiritual.
They are incompatible, by very definition, the supernatural is unquantifiable and unfalsifiable. If you want to say Jesus exists, than you are erroneous to assert that his existence is compatible with science in that it is unfalsifiable, and science is only falsifiable.
In order to understand what I say, you have to read all of what I say to you. I feel you did not read my previous few posts in entirety. Never have I claimed that the supernatural forces God that wields to shape nature are incompatible with nature, that is paradoxical. Even if it were true, God can operate a paradox. God can do all things, God is omnipotent. My argument is that what the Bible says to be true is incompatible with what has been uncovered by science thus far, and forever will be incompatible, because science is falsifiable, and the supernatural is unfalsifiable. Science is a tool to understand the natural, not the supernatural. If science could be used to uncover the supernatural truths, than it could be used to manipulate supernatural forces. That is mysticism, that is witchcraft, that is not good.
Originally posted by Dolos
Scientists can express their love of nature and the world around them, and religious scientists can express their love of God through this nature that has been provided for them, but the world around them is Physical, not Spiritual.They are incompatible, by very definition, the supernatural is unquantifiable and unfalsifiable. If you want to say Jesus exists, than you are erroneous to assert that his existence is compatible with science in that it is unfalsifiable, and science is only falsifiable.
In order to understand what I say, you have to read all of what I say to you. I feel you did not read my previous few posts in entirety.
I did read all of what you wrote.
I just respectfully counter it with incontrovertible evidence to the contrary.
Science presents a stronger case for the existence of God than the converse based on the laws of physics, thermodynamics, cause and effect, logic, and the greatest one of all, common sense.
In the absence of any other proof, the thumb alone would convince me of God’s existence.
Sir Isaac Newton
We account the scriptures of God to be the most sublime philosophy. I find more sure marks of authenticity in the Bible than in any profane history whatsoever.
Sir Isaac Newton
No sciences are better attested to than the Bible.
Sir Isaac Newton
This most beautiful system of the sun, planets, and comets could only proceed from the counsel and dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being.
Sir Isaac Newton
From His true dominion it follows that the true God is a living, intelligent, and powerful Being; and from His other perfections, that He is supreme, or most perfect. He is eternal and infinite, omnipotent and omniscient; that is, His duration reaches from eternity to eternity; His presence from infinity to infinity; He governs all things, knows all things that are or can be done.
Sir Isaac Newton
Atheism is so senseless. When I look at the solar system, I see the earth at the right distance from the sun to receive the proper amounts of heat and light. This did not happen by chance. I have a fundamental belief in the Bible as the Word of God, written by men who were inspired. I study the Bible daily.
Sir Isaac Newton
John Lennox Vs. Richard Dawkins (Christianity Vs. Atheism)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RbAtCb9K_zs
http://faithbookart.com/index.html
http://www.doesgodexist.org/JanFeb12/Scientist-Sir-Isaac.Newton.html
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=533188&pagenumber=128#post14470535
http://www.christiannewswire.com/index.php?module=releases&task=view&releaseID=14861
That's not the scientific affirmation of God. You can still see beauty, and find greater beauty from facts discovered from science, and attribute all of that to God and as a Christain you should. But it is no falsifiable evidence to or against the existence of God.
Faith is not subject to scientific scrutiny. Newton was a Christian, he was claiming again and again that elements of nature gave him everything he needed to have faith.
Originally posted by Dolos
That's not the scientific affirmation of God. You can still see beauty, and find greater beauty from facts discovered from science, and attribute all of that to God and as a Christain you should. But it is no falsifiable evidence to or against the existence of God.
The laws of physics (laws require a lawgiver), thermodynamics, logic, cause and effect, and space-time to name some, are scientific evidence for the existence of the all-powerful, all-wise/understanding/intelligent Personal, omipresent God.
How can something came from nothing? This violates the law of cause and effect.
How can life come from inanimate matter? This violates the law of biogenesis.
How can the universe be eternal? This violates the laws of thermodynamics.
How can fixed, consistently applicable, absolute laws exist without a lawmaker? This violates the law of common sense, cause and effect, and logic.
This universe is expanding which proves that it had a beginning and is currently expanding, which is in keeping with Newton's laws of motion.
This is a scientific fact.
The holy Bible is replete with scientific facts that were revealed centuries before they were discovered by modern science.
This corroborates the truth that the Bible is given by inspiration of God, because the technology for those who wrote the various books that constitute the Bible did not exist, and thus was not available to them.
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=14470665#post14470665
Originally posted by JesusIsAliveNo, science has only provided evidence that these forces exist, and according to the scientific method these forces can be debunked. These forces do NOT prove the Christian God in particular, and they certainly discredit the supernatural events in the Bible.
The laws of physics (laws require a lawgiver), thermodynamics, logic, cause and effect, and space-time to name some, are scientific evidence for the existence of the all-powerful, all-wise/understanding/intelligent Personal, omipresent God.http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=14470665#post14470665
The laws of physics (laws require a lawgiver), thermodynamics, logic, cause and effect, and space-time to name some, are scientific evidence for the existence of the all-powerful, all-wise/understanding/intelligent Personal, omipresent God.
How can something came from nothing? This violates the law of cause and effect.
How can life come from inanimate matter? This violates the law of biogenesis.
How can the universe be eternal? This violates the laws of thermodynamics.
How can fixed, consistently applicable, absolute laws exist without a lawmaker? This violates the law of common sense, cause and effect, and logic.
This universe is expanding which proves that it had a beginning and is currently expanding, which is in keeping with Newton's laws of motion, and the Bible.
This is a scientific fact.
Isaiah 40:22
It is He who sits above the circle of the earth, And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers, Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in.
Heavens is another word for cosmos or universe.
Did you notice the verse also said circle of the earth, not flatness of the earth?
The holy Bible is replete with scientific facts that were revealed centuries before they were discovered by modern science.
This corroborates the truth that the Bible is given by inspiration of God, because the technology for those who wrote the various books that constitute the Bible did not exist, and thus was not available to them.
Fast forward to 3:47 to see some of the Arguments for the Existence of God in the below clip.
John Lennox Vs. Richard Dawkins (Christianity Vs. Atheism)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RbAtCb9K_zs
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=14470665#post14470665
Digi, Oliver, Omega Vision, Symmetric Chaos, would somebody please correct JIA's last post? I'd be repeating myself.
The laws of physics are the natural forces, storms are natural, reigning fire from the heavens (meteorites) are natural. God is supernatural, He doesn't manipulate nature or weather or evolution, or thermodynamics, to create a universe with the cosmological constant. He's omnipotent, he may as well have just created the complexities of M Theory, a 14 billion year old universe, 11 dimensions, 10,000 years ago. He's God. Why do you think He could ever observed through science. He doesn't need to operate anything through natural laws of physics unless he wants. But the current laws of physics could be manipulated.
When certain people talk about cosmic consciousness, or out of body experiences, or using the observer effect, or tapping into God's channel, they are referring to magic or witchcraft, and they are being unscientific. This could happen to anyone who becomes obsessed with finding God through what science has demonstrated to be true about our universe.
Anyway, you're making things far too complicated, and you're not helping a creationist argument in any way. Creationists shouldn't need to argue, religion is about faith, it is unfalsifiable and, therefore, unscientific in nature.
Originally posted by Dolos
Digi, Oliver, Omega Vision, Symmetric Chaos, would somebody please correct JIA's last post? I'd be repeating myself.The laws of physics are the natural forces, storms are natural, reigning fire from the heavens (meteorites) are natural. God is supernatural, He doesn't manipulate nature or weather or evolution, or thermodynamics, to create a universe with the cosmological constant. He's omnipotent, he may as well have just created the complexities of M Theory, a 14 billion year old universe, 11 dimensions, 10,000 years ago. He's God. Why do you think He could ever observed through science. He doesn't need to operate anything through natural laws of physics unless he wants. But the current laws of physics could be manipulated.
When certain people talk about cosmic consciousness, or out of body experiences, or using the observer effect, or tapping into God's channel, they are referring to magic or witchcraft, and they are being unscientific. This could happen to anyone who becomes obsessed with finding God through what science has demonstrated to be true about our universe.
Anyway, you're making things far too complicated, and you're not helping a creationist argument in any way. Creationists shouldn't need to argue, religion is about faith, it is [b]unfalsifiable
and, therefore, unscientific in nature. [/B]
So says you.
But God does (and has chosen to) demonstrate His wisdom, power, intelligence, and will through the laws of nature that He has created.
Whether you choose to accept this or not, God has created this space-time continuum (or cosmos) with definite, fixed laws and constants in place to support human life.
That's why natural laws exist, because a Lawgiver willed for them to exist.
This truth can be substantiated through simple logic, common sense, deductive reasoning, and science.
Stephen Hawking committed one of the biggest blunders of his scientific career when he stated,
“Because there is a law such as gravity, the universe can and will create itself from nothing. Spontaneous creation is the reason there is something rather than nothing, why the universe exists, why we exist.â€
--The Grand Design (by Stephen Hawking and Leonard Mlodinow)
Only a fool could come to such a foolish conclusion.
When has anything ever created itself? This flies in the face of sound reason, common sense, and just plain logic.
If the universe created itself then what caused it? What was its impetus or driving force that actuated it?
This runs counter to every known law of science and yet your beloved proponent was so anti-God that he resorted to making absurd, non-scientific claims that violate and insults the intelligence of the entire human race world-wide.
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=448058&pagenumber=429#post14470752