wow... after the papal indifferance to the holocaust, that is a pretty moronic comparison.
EDIT: what is more insulting is his total misrepresentation of the rise of nazism and the role religion played in Germany during that period...
http://www.catholic.org/international/international_story.php?id=38293
Haven't been able to keep up a ton with discussion (I'm not around as much as I used to be) but to give us a new thought to chew on:
I never got to actually debate Christians. Once I had taken the long journey to non-religion, which was laborious because I went and sought out respected opinions on either side (usually in the form of books, either nonreligious ones or Christian apologetics), I was friggin' fortified in my beliefs. So when I "came out" (not the best term for it, but meh), I wasn't exactly excited about it, but I was looking forward to the discourse I'd have with people in my life. And I got this:
Originally posted by Digi
[b]4. Challenges to my Beliefs - Most serious (real life) challenges I have had to my non-religiousness have been emotional appeals. I don't face a defense of theism or an attack against atheism, but rather questions like "Do you feel a void in your life? How do you find meaning?" Those sorts of things. [/B]
I was preparing for war, not realizing I only needed a Nerf gun.
We all find meaning somehow, or feel a void if we have none. Meaning is what defines us. Certainly, religion isn't the only way to define ourselves, but many do. So I can understand that approach to religion.
But here's the thing: intelligent, informed Christians in my life had never encountered the objections to theism that I outlined on page 1. They were completely unaware of them. So was I before I went out specifically searching for them, so I guess I shouldn't have been as surprised as I was. Yet I was.
Some people are exposed to this information and remain theists, or at least remain spiritual in some sense. But I think the majority of theists simply haven't been exposed to the most in-depth criticisms of their beliefs. The OP talks about sociological, cultural, and probably biological needs for belief in most people, so religion will never really be gone. However, I do think that as information becomes more readily available to people through communications systems, that there will be a slow decline in percentages of religious. And that a deep mistrust in organized religion could be instilled easily in many religious by exposing them to an informed atheistic perspective.
...not that that would be desirable. It would frankly be vindictive and pointless with many, throwing them into an existential crisis from which no good springs. But KMC is, to me, the exception. The Christians who can (for example) stare myriad parallel myths to Jesus in the face and not doubt their Lord, to me, are the exception. The organized atheist movements out there might make a bad name for atheism among many, but I'm not convinced they don't accomplish anything. Because awareness and educating others about their views can create huge changes in people, regardless of perception.
I believe that your #5 in morality puts you above many people who claim to know God. I can't claim to have all the answers even though I do believe that the Bible is gospel. I believe that even an atheist will recieve the same fair judgement as the pope and may go to heaven while some popes do not. I follow love thy neghbor as theyself and I give thanks to God for all the good things that he has given us here on earth. I can't thank anyone else for these things and I feel like they're worthy of appreciation.
I have to say that I respect your beliefs and as per mine I do not judge your soul at all. With a moral code like your #5 I believe that you are possibly a person that treats people the way that you want to be treated....If that's true then I commend you for that isn't easy...I'd also say that you are merciful and Jesus said that the merciful shall be shown mercy. I know that your beliefs might not be exactly like mine but I don't believe that people will be judged on anything except the workings of their individual hearts. I might not be able to be an atheist myself but I can empathize with the uncertainty about the accuracy of recorded history and the motives of the ones who wrote it. Good thread but please remember that some people really can't help believing in miracles as they see existence and it's ever deepening complexity as proof of God.
The problem with atheism is the fact that it doesnt exist. The litteral definition of atheism is to be without theory. i've never met someone without a theory about religion. The other problem with atheism and those who proclaim that there is no god is the fact that the only being who can absolutely say with certainty that there is no god, is ironically god himself. Another reason atheism, or the absense of belief in any god, is a poorly constructed belief system is the fact that matter and energy cannot be created nor destroyed.. Yet it's here. The only possible explaination for the existance of matter and energy is it was brought here from somewhere else i.e another demension. Science has recently came to this conclusion, but the bible has said this for six thousand years.
Originally posted by long pigSo you're responding to something that doesn't exist?
The problem with atheism is the fact that it doesnt exist.
The other problem with atheism and those who proclaim that there is no god is the fact that the only being who can absolutely say with certainty that there is no god, is ironically god himself.Assuming He exists.
matter and energy cannot be created nor destroyed.. Yet it's here.Perhaps energy always was...the simplest proposition.
Theism's problems begin when it seeks equal theoretical footing with atheism. And for what it's worth, I'm not an atheist.
Originally posted by long pigYou're pretty wrong on all those acounts.
The problem with atheism is the fact that it doesnt exist. The litteral definition of atheism is to be without theory. i've never met someone without a theory about religion. The other problem with atheism and those who proclaim that there is no god is the fact that the only being who can absolutely say with certainty that there is no god, is ironically god himself. Another reason atheism, or the absense of belief in any god, is a poorly constructed belief system is the fact that matter and energy cannot be created nor destroyed.. Yet it's here. The only possible explaination for the existance of matter and energy is it was brought here from somewhere else i.e another demension. Science has recently came to this conclusion, but the bible has said this for six thousand years.
Atheism is not an absence of a theory about God, but an absence of belief in god, as defined by any given theory of it. montheists are atheist for a billion differents gods, while no materialistic atheist would deny the existence of god as defined by certain forms pantheism in which god=nature.
Whether or not one can claim with certainty the existence or absence of god only depends on how you define god.
Energy and matter may have always existed one way or another, time itself may have not always existed and if they did come from another dimension, how did they get there to begin with? This only shifts the problem. Furthermore, theistic philosophies are far fragile when dealing witht he first cause problem.
Originally posted by long pig
The litteral definition of atheism is to be without theory.
No. No it isn't.
Originally posted by long pig
The other problem with atheism and those who proclaim that there is no god is the fact that the only being who can absolutely say with certainty that there is no god, is ironically god himself.
You don't need absolute certainty to not believe in something. Particular gods can also be disproven. We know the Greek gods aren't living on Olympus because people have gone up and looked. The vaguely defined "god" that can be defended as untestable results in atheism anyway, why care about something that never does anything?
Originally posted by long pig
Another reason atheism, or the absense of belief in any god, is a poorly constructed belief system is the fact that matter and energy cannot be created nor destroyed.. Yet it's here. The only possible explaination for the existance of matter and energy is it was brought here from somewhere else i.e another demension. Science has recently came to this conclusion, but the bible has said this for six thousand years.
I'll just assume you're joking.
most people, atleast where i live, admit to believing in god (usually the christian god), and only that. they only believe in god, and nothing more. not many go to church on a regular basis, pray, or obey any of the shit that was taught to them, and its quite pathetic.
seriously, i know this guy who got in an arguement with a chick at school, he told her that all gay people are going to hell (it was a lot more in depth, but i cant recall the majority of it) and she just stormed out of the class, crying.
it seems easy to get lost in a lot of techinical shit when it comes to religion, but most of what i encounter involving this subject comes down to this (only pertaining to where i live, as i admit its not the smartest area):
people believe in A god (usually the christian god), because it was the way they were raised and they do not know any better, and have not taken it upon themselves to ponder about religion and come up with there own assumptions and beliefs. honestly, when i KINDLY mention a quick contradiction or even a thought thats slightly open-minded (but may come off as "against" there religion), i get pummeled with weird looks, as if there pathetic comfort in their religious philosophy is the only right thing.
its extremely sad to see how things work these days, which is why i appreciate kmc's INTELLIGENT pile of peopleclapping
You know, among the detractors, I have yet to see someone with an attempted refutation of one of my points back on page 1 of why I'm an atheist. Kind of disappointing to just be fending off sterotyped and erroneous assumptions about the nature of atheism.
Originally posted by long pig
The problem with atheism is the fact that it doesnt exist. The litteral definition of atheism is to be without theory.
Please don't start with semantics. We all know what it means to be atheist, in practical everyday terms. Trying to find a linguistic loophole through which to invalidate it does nothing to address those who acknowledge themselves as atheists.
Originally posted by long pig
The other problem with atheism and those who proclaim that there is no god
False. Atheism is a belief. It is not a statement of supposed fact.
Originally posted by long pig
Another reason atheism, or the absense of belief in any god, is a poorly constructed belief system is the fact that matter and energy cannot be created nor destroyed.. Yet it's here. The only possible explaination for the existance of matter and energy is it was brought here from somewhere else i.e another demension. Science has recently came to this conclusion, but the bible has said this for six thousand years.
False. Or rather,
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
I'll just assume you're joking.
----
Originally posted by Sappho
people believe in A god (usually the christian god), because it was the way they were raised
Sadly, the biggest determining factor in what anyone is religiously.
Originally posted by Sappho
its extremely sad to see how things work these days, which is why i appreciate kmc's INTELLIGENT pile of peopleclapping
We are pretty awesome.
313
On a side note, did long pig ever actually post in here before he left for a while? He doesn't seem like who I remember. LP, who should have won the low meta tourney that I hosted?
Re: Atheism
Hey Digi, shocktopus got cheated.🙂 I'll take a shot and not only answer your post, but i think i can kick it in the balls. 1. Precursors. True, there was a nearly identical account of the flood that was written the same time the bible says the flood of noah took place. You take that fact as proof against the bible, but i take it as proof FOR the bible. The reason why there are more than one identical flood stories is because it actually occured and was witnessed by more than one people! As for paganism in the bible and god doing evil stuff, you just don't know what you're talking about. Stop listening to others and read the book. About people having a similar story to jesus, that is true...but if you'd read the bible, you'd know why. Do you know what anti christ means in greek? not against christ, but "in place of christ or copy of christ" satan had thousands of years to make as many false copies of jesus to cast doubt on jesus.
Originally posted by Digi
On a side note, did long pig ever actually post in here before he left for a while? He doesn't seem like who I remember. LP, who should have won the low meta tourney that I hosted?
2. What jesus myth? There are nearly as many secular writings about jesus as there are biblical accounts(Josephus, talmud, herod, pilate). And none disagree with the gospels. All say he did miracles. As for science, once again he you'd read the bible you'd know it doesnt disagree with 99% of science including age of earth, evo etc. In fact it says the great lizards of old were destroyed when god threw a mountain into the ocean......sound familiar? And where did you hear that the bible was written by science ignorant mystics? Luke was a doctor. ,,,,,,,,,, 4. A person who truely knows the bible will agree with 99% of science. So the problem you have isn't really with what the bible says, it's with what you've been told the bible says. That's not a very smart/strong foundation to case one's belief system on.