Originally posted by MindshipQuite true. It also re-enforces the things that I wrote about atheism earlier. That being the case I still don't see what's positive about atheism rather than what's positive about Occam's Razor. I can see what's positive about Occam's Razor.
Occam's Razor is a good, common sense rule to follow when seeking 'The Truth' (whatever that may be). Atheism adheres to this principle better than theism.
Originally posted by The MISTERBut that is what's positive about atheism, that it does just that. It binds more closely to this useful principle. To say that only the principle is useful is to ignore that connection.
Quite true. It also re-enforces the things that I wrote about atheism earlier. That being the case I still don't see what's positive about atheism rather than what's positive about Occam's Razor. I can see what's positive about Occam's Razor.
It's like if I asked you, what's positive about theism, and you said, theism enables one to find meaning in life. And I said, 'I still don't see what's positive about theism rather than what's positive about finding meaning in life. I can see what's positive about finding meaning in life'.
Originally posted by Mindship
But that is what's positive about atheism, that it does just that. It binds more closely to this useful principle. To say that only the principle is useful is to ignore that connection.It's like if I asked you, what's positive about theism, and you said, theism enables one to find meaning in life. And I said, 'I still don't see what's positive about theism rather than what's positive about finding meaning in life. I can see what's positive about finding meaning in life'.
What you're leaving out is that Occam's Razor when applied to atheism strengthens the atheistic fundamentals that all is meaningless and without purpose.
If applied to theism Occam's Razor still works and simplifies theism to all is meaningful and has purpose.
You could do the same with the example you used and say that atheism enables one to find TRUE meaning in life.(considering that after it's over there's nothing to look forward to) The two ideas can fit together on occasion but they aren't bound to each other.
I can see how Occam's Razor can be positive outside of being connected to a belief that there is no purpose, and no ultimate meaning to anything. In that context I don't see how it can considered positive.
If a murderer says "Killing people helps me find meaning in life" I wouldn't say I can see what is positive about murder.
Originally posted by The MISTER
Atheism is different than atheists in the same way that christianity is different than christians. I'm glad that most people that call themselves atheists have not subscribed to all that the idea encompasses. Regardless atheism is founded on that which can be proven and disregards the supernatural. What forms of spiritualism have nothing to do with the supernatural? Atheism is what it is, even if most that call themselves atheists don't conform to it in totality. It's the doctrine of absolute purposelessness.
You are incorrect in your belief of what atheism is.
Originally posted by The MISTERWithout divine meaning and purpose. Not w/o human. And just as humans are in and of this universe, so do we bring meaning and purpose into, and make it of, this universe. That aside...
What you're leaving out is that Occam's Razor when applied to atheism strengthens the atheistic fundamentals that all is meaningless and without purpose.
O'sR is simply a rule to follow. It provides no value judgments, no answers to questions, only a way of finding them. It's practical. Atheism values this, even as applied to Godly matters. That's a feather in its cap.
Originally posted by The MISTERI have no problem with this. I never said theism is antithetical to O'sR. Only that...
If applied to theism Occam's Razor still works and simplifies theism to all is meaningful and has purpose.
Originally posted by MindshipWithout a spiritual dimension to reality, it offers a simpler map.
Atheism adheres to this principle better than theism.
Originally posted by Bardock42
You are incorrect in your belief of what atheism is.
I've met atheists and none of them seem to fully subscribe to the message of atheism. It's easy to say that there is no God, it's harder to prove to people through your actions that you don't have any reservations on that. Theists have doubts as well...and doubts are a good thing sometimes in a religion, as religions are known for demanding that you do certain things.
And that is where there is the biggest difference between atheism and theism. Theism contains many different religions and depending on which one, the Spirit(s) of that teaching make many various commands.
An atheist is commanded by atheism to do nothing.
Originally posted by Mindship
O'sR is simply a rule to follow. It provides no value judgments, no answers to questions, only a way of finding them. It's practical. Atheism values this, even as applied to Godly matters. That's a feather in its cap.I have no problem with this. I never said theism is antithetical to O'sR. Only that...
Without a spiritual dimension to reality, it offers a simpler map.
Originally posted by The MISTER
I'll entertain that, because it involves atheists, and atheists are complex individuals just like theists.I've met atheists and none of them seem to fully subscribe to the message of atheism. It's easy to say that there is no God, it's harder to prove to people through your actions that you don't have any reservations on that. Theists have doubts as well...and doubts are a good thing sometimes in a religion, as religions are known for demanding that you do certain things.
And that is where there is the biggest difference between atheism and theism. Theism contains many different religions and depending on which one, the Spirit(s) of that teaching make many various commands.
An atheist is commanded by atheism to do nothing.
But that's completely incorrect. Atheism is only your believe that there is no God. Nothing else. It's not a good or bad thing in itself, just like theism isn't. There is no reason in atheism that you can't believe in fairies, unicorns, and meanings of life.
Originally posted by Bardock42
But that's completely incorrect. Atheism is only your believe that there is no God. Nothing else. It's not a good or bad thing in itself, just like theism isn't. There is no reason in atheism that you can't believe in fairies, unicorns, and meanings of life.
OK you said that I was COMPLETELY incorrect. In your personal opinion what would you say that atheists are commanded by atheism to do? And since this is your opinion I won't argue it.
Originally posted by The MISTER
OK you said that I was COMPLETELY incorrect. In your personal opinion what would you say that atheists are commanded by atheism to do? And since this is your opinion I won't argue it.
Oh lol, I misunderstood you. I thought you meant "Atheism tells people not to do anything", I agree it does not tell people to do anything particular they are not limited in doing what they want,, they can do everything. But neither does "Theism", btw.
Mister, you're missing the point entirely. You're ascribing reactions to atheist beliefs. The beliefs themselves are neither negative nor positive.
It's why any negative slant on it is just your opinion, just as a positive slant is mine. Atheism is neither. It's a set of beliefs, devoid of inherent good or bad. So like I said, you weren't describing atheism at all. You were only describing how you view it in terms of potential meaning.
Also, atheism doesn't "command" anything. More than anything, it's a lack of a particular worldview, not a rigid dogma like many religions. You'd likely find a lot of variance in atheist worldviews. Thus, there's no central command, as you put it, or goal.
So basically, this:
Originally posted by Mindship
I'm not an atheist, but I really have to disagree with this. I would say, at its core, atheism is simply a statement of belief given the apparent lack of divine proof. Where any particular atheist goes from there depends on that person.
But since none of that will likely sway you, you wanted a positive? Ok. Atheism allows you complete freedom to create your own meaning to life. It's empowering and exciting. There.
🙄
I could name more, but it would reinforce your ideology on how we should approach atheism, which is silly.
Originally posted by TacDavey
So basically, Atheism does not allow for any objective meaning to life. Any meaning that one might derive is completely subjective.
Incorrect. Atheism is not contrary to objective meaning, it's is just contrary to objective (and subjective) meaning given by a Personal Creator.
Originally posted by Bardock42
Incorrect. Atheism is not contrary to objective meaning, it's is just contrary to objective (and subjective) meaning given by a Personal Creator.
The only problem with that is that, if the universe is an accident or the result of natural causes, where did this objective purpose come from? To have an objective purpose for the universe suggests a design to it, which suggests a designer. Which Atheism rejects.
Originally posted by TacDavey
The only problem with that is that, if the universe is an accident or the result of natural causes, where did this objective purpose come from? To have an objective purpose for the universe suggests a design to it, which suggests a designer. Which Atheism rejects.
That's a limitation you try to set on it, personally I agree, however I see the same exact problem with a creator, it's not objective, it's just what he subjectively wants. You accepting this argument when it comes to a non-creator, but making an exception for your believe, is the same exact thing that atheists can do if they want to belief in objective meaning from a supreme set of rules they believe to be part of the universe, or objective rules derived from natural evolution, or any other spiritual belief they may have.
Originally posted by Bardock42
That's a limitation you try to set on it, personally I agree, however I see the same exact problem with a creator, it's not objective, it's just what he subjectively wants. You accepting this argument when it comes to a non-creator, but making an exception for your believe, is the same exact thing that atheists can do if they want to belief in objective meaning from a supreme set of rules they believe to be part of the universe, or objective rules derived from natural evolution, or any other spiritual belief they may have.
That isn't quite correct. God created the universe and life, so He can give it an objective purpose. Like a man who makes a watch. The man created the watch, and gave it the objective purpose to tell time. That's what it was made for. To have something that tells time is something the watch maker subjectively wanted, so he created something and gave it the objective purpose to tell time.
"supreme set of rules they believe to be part of the universe"
That suggests intelligence. Who thought up these rules and put them in place?
"objective rules derived from natural evolution"
Evolution's only goal is to support the survival of a species. It holds no power over the purpose of an organism in regards to it's place in the universe.
"supreme set of rules they believe to be part of the universe"That suggests intelligence. Who thought up these rules and put them in place?
The particular person that believes in them.
IMO, the only difference between objective rules and subjective rules is that you call one objective and you call the other subjective.