What Would our Founding Fathers Think?

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I disagree. If you assume their ideas are irrelevant in today's world, then you fall into the trap of repeating history. Now that does not answer your question, but I think you already know the answer (political fodder).

just to clarify:

in your mind, (1) the ideas of the founding fathers should be taken as relevant today, (2) and given as much credibility as the people who do modern political theory?

So, just as an example: If person A were a modern economist, who had generated a theory about how best to run the economy, referring to the fact that Benjamin Franklin might not have like it is, to you, a proper refutation of person A's argument?

Originally posted by inimalist
just to clarify:

in your mind, (1) the ideas of the founding fathers should be taken as relevant today, (2) and given as much credibility as the people who do modern political theory?

So, just as an example: If person A were a modern economist, who had generated a theory about how best to run the economy, referring to the fact that Benjamin Franklin might not have like it is, to you, a proper refutation of person A's argument?

Is that what I think? I'm so glad you informed me.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Is that what I think? I'm so glad you informed me.

this:

Originally posted by inimalist
just to clarify:

indicates that, in fact, I am asking if that is what you thought. That is the impression I got from reading your posts, and wanted to know if I had assumed correctly or if there was some nuance you wanted to point out.

Originally posted by inimalist
this:

indicates that, in fact, I am asking if that is what you thought. That is the impression I got from reading your posts, and wanted to know if I had assumed correctly or if there was some nuance you wanted to point out.

I don't want to point out anything. Your assumption was completely wrong.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I don't want to point out anything. Your assumption was completely wrong.

so then you don't believe the ideas of the founding fathers are relevant today, or should be given as much consideration as modern political theory?

Originally posted by inimalist
so then you don't believe the ideas of the founding fathers are relevant today, or should be given as much consideration as modern political theory?

Dude, shades of grey. You ask him two polar opposites. 😛

Originally posted by Bardock42
Dude, shades of grey. You ask him two polar opposites. 😛

I was told my assumptions were completely wrong...

I assume that means opposite?

EDIT: at least the idea that the founding fathers are relevant today is really not a question that leaves a ton of room for nuance. One could say "parts", but, imho, its like asking if the Bible is relevant. it really either is or isn't. "parts" would, to me, mean that it really isn't.

Originally posted by inimalist
so then you don't believe the ideas of the founding fathers are relevant today, or should be given as much consideration as modern political theory?

I do believe that the ideas of the founding fathers are relevant today. They are humans faced with a time in human history that has a profound effect on today's world.

You cannot get an opinion about modern political theory from me, because I do not have one. I have nothing but contempt for politics. I thought you already knew that.

Originally posted by inimalist
I was told my assumptions were completely wrong...

I assume that means opposite?

EDIT: at least the idea that the founding fathers are relevant today is really not a question that leaves a ton of room for nuance. One could say "parts", but, imho, its like asking if the Bible is relevant. it really either is or isn't. "parts" would, to me, mean that it really isn't.

Though one could argue that their ideas developed a lot of what we believe today.

Of course they are very relevant to modern American politics. But that's a different matter I guess.

the ideas of the founding fathers are still relevant today as in this country is based on it and many Constitutional laws that are in place today were made by them and are unusually difficult to amended due to it being vital to an individual person and or how the government suppose to be run.

there are clear violations by the current government that violate the spirit of the founding fathers intent.

the reason i ask the question is to see how some of you feel the founding fathers opinion would be on certain legislation or political brohah..

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I do believe that the ideas of the founding fathers are relevant today. They are humans faced with a time in human history that has a profound effect on today's world.

fair enough. Do you think they had answers for today's world?

I guess I can't deny how much they are still relevant in the modern political landscape

Originally posted by Bardock42
I suppose you could argue that they are only relevant as far as they are in accordance with modern political theories, which I suppose would not make them relevant at all. Which I guess I'd actually agree with.

Though one could argue that their ideas developed a lot of what we believe today.

the former, at least, are my feelings. That they informed later opinion is interesting, but I don't feel that makes them any more relevant themselves.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Of course they are very relevant to modern American politics. But that's a different matter I guess.

ya, maybe "relevant" is a bad word.

Originally posted by King Castle
the reason i ask the question is to see how some of you feel the founding fathers opinion would be on certain legislation or political brohah..

I don't think their opinions would matter though

why look backwards?

and the concept of freedom goes back way further than the founding fathers.

Originally posted by inimalist
fair enough. Do you think they had answers for today's world?...

I think they would been completely befuddled by today's world, and run back to burn the declaration of independence. So, no, not taken out of time.

why would we be looking backwards and not forward? which by the way, they were doing, looking forward..

freedom goes back far b4 them in various cultures but their goal once gaining freedom is maintaining it and keeping governments and ruling class from taking it or limiting it. hence, they wrote down how the government is suppose to be run and writing down laws and rights to protect individual ppl.

we live in a society maybe not you where our rights and freedoms are constantly ignored or restricted while they hide behind things such as the patriot act..

things like this that our founding fathers were aware of might happen and even stated that no amount of security is worth a person's freedom and constitutional rights.. its a valid view then as it is now b/c they lived it and knew 1st hand how laws can be twisted to serve the elite.

we look to the past so as not to repeat the same mistakes in the future.. at least that is what i was taught in "American" history class and i was taught to never surrender my rights and fight for them even to death to defend them for not just me but the american ppl, something again taught to me in the "American" military.

usaflag whimper
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVxSMsLTj2M
God Bless the world and the Once Noble Idea of Freedom and Justice for All..

Originally posted by King Castle
things like this that our founding fathers were aware of might happen and even stated that no amount of security is worth a person's freedom and constitutional rights.. its a valid view then as it is now b/c they lived it and knew 1st hand how laws can be twisted to serve the elite.

Oh? Is that why the Alien and Sedition Acts got passed? I mean that thing makes the PATRIOT Act look positively libertarian.

Originally posted by King Castle
God Bless the world and the Once Noble Idea of Freedom and Justice for All..

Which wasn't held by the founding fathers... but whatever.

While Jefferson denounced the Sedition Act as invalid and a violation of the First Amendment of the United States Bill of Rights, which protected the right of free speech, his main argument on its unconstitutionality was that it violated the Tenth Amendment:[citation needed] "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people." Jefferson more strongly argued the Federal Government had overstepped its limits in the Alien and Sedition Acts by attempting to exercise unjust powers.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Which wasn't held by the founding fathers... but whatever.

"God" also does not share that view but, its still mine and i will still say it in the spirit of good will.

Originally posted by King Castle
why would we be looking backwards and not forward? which by the way, they were doing, looking forward..

ok, think of it in terms of the quote "The tree of liberty must be occasionally watered by the blood of tyrants"

now, this has the obvious "revolutionary" meaning, but it goes deeper. What it is saying is that all power becomes, over time, self serving. While a government may start "for the people", it will eventually, even naturally, become corrupt.

Such is true with the idea of an entrenched constitution. While what they wrote might have been revolutionary for the time, the past 200 years have seen the constitution manipulated to serve the good of the powerful.

Today, appealing back to the constitution simply furthers the goals of those who already have the power through the constitution. The "Tyranny" of that document needs to bleed, such that the "tree of liberty" can grow. Basically, we have to cast off the constitution in order to further what might have been its initial goals.

Originally posted by King Castle
we live in a society maybe not you where our rights and freedoms are constantly ignored or restricted while they hide behind things such as the patriot act..

the fact that people see the PATRIOT act as akin to fascism is a testament to how free western society truly is

I hate the point I am about to make, but I tend to think this is the only time such a comparison is warranted: if you truly think your rights are restricted constantly, move even to a nation like China. Forget the obvious examples. Go open a business in Russia. Go see what, in real terms, Western freedom means.

and to be frank, you are much more free as a citizen today than you would have been after the American revolution. In fact, if you compare, the average citizen lost freedoms during the revolution. The common man was much freer under the distant British rule than they were under the new revolutionary government.

Originally posted by King Castle
While Jefferson denounced the Sedition Act as invalid and a violation of the First Amendment of the United States Bill of Rights, which protected the right of free speech, his main argument on its unconstitutionality was that it violated the Tenth Amendment:[citation needed] "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people." Jefferson more strongly argued the Federal Government had overstepped its limits in the Alien and Sedition Acts by attempting to exercise unjust powers.

John Adams was a founding father, too, and he approved the act.

You'll also notice that no one ever formally challenged the Acts. Of course that was because the Constitution didn't include the necessary provisions (which seems like another failure on the part of the founding fathers).

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I think they would been completely befuddled by today's world, and run back to burn the declaration of independence. So, no, not taken out of time.

Burn it, eh?

lol, the modern world would turn them into Imperialists, ya? 😛

@ inimalist

your point is lost to me and irrelevant to a person who knows 1st hand what it is like to freely give up certain freedoms and rights for the greater good of my country.. i know what is to be in a fascist government when i have bn in 3rd world countries where ppl are afraid to speak up or leave there homes.. i dont need to go to russian or china when i can go to a ghetto and see ppl having the same fears.

trying to make a comparison between two different forms of governments does not alter the fact that one country is doing things it is not suppose to do.... i could care less what russia or china do, what i do care is what my country does to its citizens and the laws and rights it violates under unconstitutional laws out of supposed necessity.

i also realize that ppl have abused the constitution in order to garner political, social power... i also believe that sometimes we the ppl need to cast off the shackles of corrupt government and it is our duty as american ppl to do so... i am not one you need to convince about changing things in government i am not a blind patriotic follower... that doesnt mean i dont respect and understand the spirit and intent of the constitution and back it up when it needs to. i understand the things in it need to be amended for modern times.. but, to say we need to cast it off is where i have a problem the minute that happens we are no longer living in the united states founded by our forefathers... maybe its a good thing maybe not, all i know is that it can and would cause many problems and political/social upheaval to do so.

i am not sure what you mean by ppl being more freer under British rule? if you mean that they were across the other side of the ocean as free, i guess you are right. but, that isnt enough to have an uncaring government who taxes your colonies and does nothing to help build your society...