Originally posted by Black bolt zI didn't say Dr. M would win
And what are you bringing to prove Dr. M can win?His most impressive feat by far would either by surviving de-atomization or walking on the surface of the sun.
based on what we've seen, he certainly seems on par with HE
my question is what makes you think H.E. trumps him?
Originally posted by Omega Visionif that's all that was shown of this tom bombadil...then we truly can't really debate him
Tom Bombadil had power over the Barrow Wights. Tom Bombadil was beyond the One Ring's grasp. Tom Bombadil was older than anyone could remember. All those things were super epic. Ergo he's God.That's essentially the argument I've seen (and once advanced myself when I first joined this forum) used to elevate DM beyond the Herald tier where he belongs despite not having the feats to support it.
My response to those DM powers you've listed is the same as your response would be to the feats of Tom Bombadil:
"So what?"
which is my point with Dr. M
I don't think we can debate a character unless we know their upper limit...or have some idea...which we really don't with Dr. M
which is why I don't understand how you could just claim HE trumps him in all aspects
Originally posted by Starscream MYes teleportation
oh gimme a damn break...your analogy is horribletom baombadil (whoever that is) didn't do shit in LOTR...Dr.M showed godlike abilities
teleportation
matter manipulation
matter disassembly and assembly level powers
invincibility
what exactly does HE trump Dr. M in and what are you basing it on?
Tranmustion to only a certain degree well within the ability of other heralds.
True
Invincibility to physical force only.
Originally posted by Black bolt zreally...when did HE form multiple copies of perfect versions of himself?
And what have we seen?Feats that HE at his lowest showings could replicate?Far superior feats even at base level?
when did HE disassemble complex machinery into its most basic components with a mere thought
when did HE ever demolecularize an opponent with but a thought
Originally posted by Starscream MHe could take another human and evolve him just like he did himself.
really...when did HE form multiple copies of perfect versions of himself?when did HE disassemble complex machinery into its most basic components with a mere thought
when did HE ever demolecularize an opponent with but a thought
He once created an adamantium cage out of thin air.
When did ozy ever do it to anythign stronger then a regular manourished human?
Originally posted by Black bolt zadmantium cage is complex machinery lol
He could take another human and evolve him just like he did himself.He once created an adamantium cage out of thin air.
When did ozy ever do it to anythign stronger then a regular manourished human?
a malnourished human is no different to demolecularize than a well fed human
atoms are atoms
Originally posted by Starscream MIf you know that molecule man said that adamantium "feels weird" it sounds complex.Even if own isn't exactly smart.
admantium cage is complex machinery lola malnourished human is no different to demolecularize than a well fed human
atoms are atoms
Yes but any energy manipulating low herald should be capable of blowing a human apart.
1. Who elevated themselves to a higher level
DM was a freak accident. HE made himself into what he is and while his levels vary, he's usually at HH or trans tier and has pushed himself into the fringes of cosmic power, even though this usually takes a tow on his sanity.
2. Who achieved the most in tech
DM was working on cold fusion or something? HE has screwed with the inner workings of celestials and has created a planet.
3. Who has the most potential
See answer 1
4. Who is smarter
HE is smarter than Reed Richards. DM wasnt smarter than Ozzie. He was a much better character than HE though, that's for sure.
Originally posted by Omega Vision
Tom Bombadil had power over the Barrow Wights. Tom Bombadil was beyond the One Ring's grasp. Tom Bombadil was older than anyone could remember. All those things were super epic. Ergo he's God.That's essentially the argument I've seen (and once advanced myself when I first joined this forum) used to elevate DM beyond the Herald tier where he belongs despite not having the feats to support it.
My response to those DM powers you've listed is the same as your response would be to the feats of Tom Bombadil:
"So what?"
The confusion might be because Bombadil wasn't in the movies. But he was so powerful that he could see someone when they were wearing the ring. The ring tried to get away from him when he went to pick it up or at least his nature was so antithetical that it didn't want him touching it. It had zero effect on him and he tossed it aside without a thought. So yes, the "No-limits Fallacy" would be that since we don't see anything he can't do, he can do anything whether he actually did it or not.
The problem is the same Catch-22 with Dr. Manhattan. Can he create a planet? We go into, "Well, he didn't but there was no need to so you can't prove he couldn't." Well, no, and I can't prove that Q from Star Trek can't destroy galaxies just because he never did and never displayed sheer destructive power even close to destroying entire galaxies. Therefore, in a fight against Galactus, the fact that Q never tried equals Galactus's actually doing these things."
It's the equivalent of "You can't prove I can't benchpress 400 pounds since I've never tried."
On the flipside, when they did the original DC roleplaying game, apparently Alan Moore worked closely with the game designers. According to them, he was quite anxious to volunteer information about certain things, especially Dr. Manhattan. Perhaps because the nature of the story required Manhattan to be so restricted and he only had 12 appearances, Moore was glad to give them information about what Manhattan's true power levels were. If the game was valid as evidence, Manhattan would dropkick heralds of Galactus and be a true cosmic himself.
Bottom line: going by the rules, going with a feats-based system where the proof has to be that he displayed power on a certain level, the High Evolutionary wins on all counts.