Well I'm by no means an expert but I'd imagine they delve far more deeply into the mentioned 18 disciplines beyond a simple description of what they encompass.
There are hundreds of martials arts in existence, and a hell of a lot of overlap when it comes to the core disciplines. Its the exact techniques that defines the martial art, not the core areas it emphasises. Nephthys and Phoenix are absolutely correct on the matter.
- That was a drect response to Peach btw, I hadn't refreshed the page.
Originally posted by General Kaliero
You again, NC?Ezio has already been shown to completely fulfill all eighteen traditional disciplines of ninjutsu. You really don't need any more proof than that. Ezio is a master of all the arts deemed essential to being a ninja, so unless you're going to be racist, he certainly qualifies.
If Ninjitsu were to be fully defined by those 18 core disciplines, absolutely. The fact of the matter is that you haven't established that Ezio demonstrates an application of the art to an exact degree of specificity.
edit - Ugh, sorry about this one, I had already opened a new tab and made the post before copying and pasting it into the other box.
Originally posted by NCRotCA
Well I'm by no means an expert but I'd imagine they delve far more deeply into the mentioned 18 disciplines beyond a simple description of what they encompass.There are hundreds of martials arts in existence, and a hell of a lot of overlap when it comes to the core disciplines. Its the exact techniques that defines the martial art, not the core areas it emphasises. Nephthys and Phoenix are absolutely correct on the matter.
- That was a drect response to Peach btw, I hadn't refreshed the page.
If one possesses all the abilities of a ninja, especially to the point of obvious mastery, one certainly could be considered a ninja.
Edit: If you are indeed knowledgeable in kickboxing, jiu-jitsu, and wrestling, I'm surprised you're making this argument, expecially with how closely related they are.
Well speaking as someone who has mastered three, dabbled in many more, and plans to be a UFC fighter, individual components of generic core disciplines differ vastly, from the exact combinations of various basic moves, to stance, to the angle at which you attack from, to motion, to precision, to emphasis on balance etc. There are numerous arts that cover the exact same core disciplines; by your logic they should be considered one and the same art.
Edit - The reason I've chosen to take those specific three so far is because they're quite unrelated. One is focused on stand up, the other grappling, and the other on submission fighting. They're actually very disimilar art forms.
Originally posted by NCRotCA
Well speaking as someone who has mastered three, dabbled in many more, and plans to be a UFC fighter, individual components of generic core disciplines differ vastly, from the exact combinations of various basic moves, to stance, to the angle at which you attack from, to motion, to precision, to emphasis on balance etc. There are numerous arts that cover the exact same core disciplines; by your logic they should be considered one and the same art.Edit - The reason I've chosen to take those specific three so far is because they're quite unrelated. One is focused on stand up, the other grappling, and the other on submission fighting. They're actually very disimilar art forms.
Jointlocks are used in both Jiu-Jitsu and wrestling. So are chokeholds. Kickboxing punches are standard boxing fare. The elbow and leg strikes are shared across multiple martial arts. Kickboxing is virtually identical to Mauy Thai. Jiu-Jitsu is based on Kodokan Judo, which is itself based on traditional jujutsu.
Originally posted by NCRotCA
Not centralized as in there are many different variations. Variations that will individually possess a strict way of practise. Proficiency in the martial art would require proficiency in a given variation.
Actually, when you take into account stance, gesture, balance emphasis, angle, timing, precision, target location, order etc. the possibilities become pretty enormous. Jointlocks are used in wrestling but the same emphasis isn't placed on it that it is placed in BJJ.
How a given variation of the art comes to be that way is another discussion entirely, however that variations do exist doesn't mean that anything that falls under x level of generalization of the art automatically qualifies. I'm not sure how I missed the point exactly.
Originally posted by NCRotCA
Actually, when you take into account stance, gesture, balance emphasis, angle, timing, precision, target location, order etc. the possibilities become pretty enormous. Jointlocks are used in wrestling but the same emphasis isn't placed on it that it is placed in BJJ.How a given variation of the art comes to be that way is another discussion entirely, however that variations do exist doesn't mean that anything that falls under x level of generalization of the art automatically qualifies. I'm not sure how I missed the point exactly.
I am not debating emphasis, I am debating use.
If you acknowledge that variations of ninjutsu exist, then you acknowledge that it is the elements those variations share that determine they are all ninjutsu. Since that is the case, if someone knows all those elements, they are effectively, even if not technically, versed in ninjutsu.
Ergo, Ezio is a ninja in all but name.
I'm not entirely sure that what you're saying is truly coming from a place of experience. As someone who has taken multiple martial arts to very high levels a far greater emphasis is placed on such things as precision and control, and general specificity than you seem to acknowledge. Also, I'd say the emphasis has a lot to do with how closely related they are. Boxing and Capoeira both contain punching, however the former's huge emphasis in the discipline, and the latter's far greater diversity and branching away from that dscipline, are elements that would render the two martial arts to be considered highly unrelated.
If you acknowledge that variations of ninjutsu exist, then you acknowledge that it is the elements those variations share that determine they are all ninjutsu.
1. You can't neccessarily say that it is solely because of those similarities that they can all be considered Ninjitsu. You have to factor in the history of those variations, ties to former variations/the original art of Ninjitsu, as well as outward recognition, among other hypothetical factors.
2. There is still the factor of the degree of specificity that you haven't established for what Ezio demonstrates, that could hypothetically be far greater for the mentioned variations, than what it is for Ezio.
Originally posted by NCRotCA
I'm not entirely sure that what you're saying is truly coming from a place of experience. As someone who has taken multiple martial arts to very high levels a far greater emphasis is placed on such things as precision and control, and general specificity than you seem to acknowledge. Also, I'd say the emphasis has a lot to do with how closely related they are. Boxing and Capoeira both contain punching, however the former's huge emphasis in the discipline, and the latter's far greater diversity and branching away from that dscipline, are elements that would render the two martial arts to be considered highly unrelated.1. You can't neccessarily say that it is solely because of those similarities that they can all be considered Ninjitsu. You have to factor in the history of those variations, ties to former variations/the original art of Ninjitsu, as well as outward recognition, among other hypothetical factors.
2. There is still the factor of the degree of specificity that you haven't established for what Ezio demonstrates, that could hypothetically be far greater for the mentioned variations, than what it is for Ezio.
All of this is simply to show that one can learn the necessary elements of an art through other venues.
As for specificity:
Originally posted by General Kaliero
Oh, now you've gone and riled me up.First, skilled in ninjutsu. Of course, ninjutsu, unlike Judo or most martial art disciplines, is not centralized, and there are many variations upon the basic technique. The heart of ninjutsu boils down to survival tactics, espionage, misdirection, escape, disguise, medicine.
Hmm... Those are all things Ezio knows!
In fact, let's break it down into the Juhakkei presented by the Bujinkan.
[b]Spiritual refinement
- The heart of the Assassin, as noted in their philosophies. An Assassin respects those he has killed. Nothing is true, everything is permitted. "We work in the dark, to preserve the light."Unarmed combat - Ezio is a master at unarmed combat, using handfuls of dirt to blind attackers, warding off attacks from various types of weapons, and able to disarm opponents easily, often while in a crowd. He can both incapacitate and even kill with his bare hands.
Sword techniques - Ezio can use dozens of swords as well as any master, blocking, parrying, disarming, and killing with ease.
Stick and staff techniques - Ezio can disarm soldiers with polearms and use them proficiently, able to keep fighting momentarily even if his pole is broken in half.
Spear techniques - Same thing, Ezio can knock down multiple attackers with a spear, and stab each one of them.
Naginata techniques - While naginata obviously weren't in much use in 16th century Italy, Ezio is capable of using longswords in the same way, cutting down charging horses to get to the rider.
Kusarigama techniques - While there are no kusarigama in Italy, the essence of this style is present, in that Ezio can use many farming tools found in the countryside as improvised weapons.
Throwing weapon techniques - Ezio is a master of throwing knives, able to kill guards at extreme range with efficiency and accuracy.
Pyrotechnics - Ezio uses smoke bombs and his Hidden Gun, and also knows enough to use flares as signals.
Disguise and impersonation - Multiple times Ezio has disguised himself, and others, as enemy soldiers and avoided detection, even able to speak some other languages well enough to hold a conversation.
Stealth and entering methods - Stealth is the meat of Assassin work. Whether he's avoiding being seen or blending in with a crowd, Ezio excels at it. He can also freerun to enter buildings from rooftops and open windows, avoiding detection, and can pick locks with his blades.
Horsemanship - Ezio is a proficient rider, able to strike and shoot from horseback, and even leap off his horse onto another when necessary.
Water training - Apparently the only man in Italy who can swim, Ezio can use the water as a hiding spot and as a secondary passage if possible. He's also rowed many small boats in his lifetime, and dismantled larger ones while doing it.
Tactics - Not the obvious combat tactics. This skill refers to unorthodox strategies and manipulations of politics and current events to influence opponents. Most of Ezio's Templar targets involve this kind of action.
Espionage - From pickpocketing to trailing to eavesdropping, this is most of what Ezio does.
Escaping and concealment - Freerunning, using crowds and allies as hindrances to his pursuers, hiding in places from plain sight to haystacks to gardens to wells and water... This is the rest of what Ezio does.
Meteorology - Believe it or not, Ezio does this too! The weather occasionally provides an advantage Ezio exploits to approach his targets.
Geography - As his exploits cover most of Italy, Ezio purchases maps and climbs to high viewpoints, and uses his knowledge of the areas to both find hiding places and ascertain the locations of his targets.
So every major element of Ninjutsu, as defined by the Bujinkan, the modern continuation of ninja arts, Ezio has effectively covered. It's also worth noting that in the AC universe, Assassins had been around as long as Mankind, and there were Asian Orders that influenced/became Japan's ninja.
So... Ezio's more ninja than most manga-derived ninja. [/B]
Well by exact degree of specificity, what I meant was more something like this:
Random Sword Combination:
Move A, Move C, Move B, Move G, Move E x 2, Move H...
Each move being elaborated on by exact: stance, balancing, sword grip, angle of attack, target area, timing, precision, energy expenditure etc..
I wouldn't say the simple discipline of "sword techniques" accompanied by a brief description speaks too highly for specificity.
Originally posted by NCRotCA
Well by exact degree of specificity, what I meant was more something like this:Random Sword Combination:
Move A, Move C, Move B, Move G, Move E x 2, Move H...
Each move being elaborated on by exact: stance, balancing, sword grip, angle of attack, target area, timing, precision, energy expenditure etc..
I wouldn't say the simple discipline of "sword techniques" accompanied by a brief description speaks too highly for specificity.
Kata or forms are standardized sequences of attack and defense used to teach students all the strikes and blocks of the discipline. Each step in the sequence comes together to form an aesthetically pleasing imaginary battle. By drilling in these sequences, the motions become second nature for individual or combined use in freeform combat.
The forms themselves are a teaching method, but in no way an entire technique. Kata are rarely applicable wholesale to actual situations; which is why they are for instruction only.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
So what's the current definition of ninja?
Originally posted by General Kaliero
Kata are rarely applicable wholesale to actual situations; which is why they are for instruction only.
Karate Kid 3 disagrees. awesome
One would think someone who is capable of effectively performing ninjutsu, but apparently such logic doesn't work for some people.
Poor Rock lee...
But I nominate Riochi Cooper! shuriken
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
So what's the current definition of ninja?
Originally posted by Nephthys
Dictionary.com says a ninja is:'a member of a feudal Japanese society of mercenary agents, highly trained in martial arts and stealth (ninjutsu), who were hired for covert purposes ranging from espionage to sabotage and assassination.'
and:
'a person skilled in ninjutsu, a Japanese martial art characterized by stealthy movement and camouflage.'
By both of those definitions Ezio is not a ninja, being neither Japanese, a member of a ninja group or a practicioner of ninjutsu.
edit: Also Ezio tends not to utilise camourflage. Unless you count jumping in hay.
We should just let the OP decide imo. It's his thread and if he wants people to actually be ninja or if he will allow ninja equivilent's then its his decision.
Though if he picks the second then Agent 47 kicks Ezio's randy Italian ass all day long. He's not only muuuuch more sophisticated in his assassination methods, utilising 'accidents' to kill targets, his kill counts far exceeds Ezio's by a long shot and he matches all of GK's criteria.
Well if we're going by GK's fanboy-ridden definition of what a ninja is (131), I change my answer 😖hifty: