Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Perhaps it is utilitarianistic motives, but I still don’t think you can take the higher ground. The evils of the world are caused by humans regardless of they religious views, including atheistic views.
Yes humans cause the world's evils. They do this because they make bad decisions not because humans magically create bad things. By supporting the skill of knowing how to making effective decisions I can take the high ground (though not from the position of motive, as I'll show below)
Most people will say "we should reduce suffering in the world". Truly sick people that are just out to cause harm are very rare. Without logic we cannot know how to reduce suffering. When people engage in consistently poor reasoning is just perpetuates the problems that we already have.
I'm not supporting an atheist worldview, mind you, I'm supporting a rational one. I happen to think that a rational worldview results in atheism but it is not necessary. There are plenty of rational Christians, though in my experience their version of god is weaker than those of irrational ones.
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Yes humans cause the world's evils. They do this because they make bad decisions not because humans magically create bad things. By supporting the skill of knowing how to making effective decisions I can take the high ground (though not from the position of motive, as I'll show below)Most people will say "we should reduce suffering in the world". Truly sick people that are just out to cause harm are very rare. Without logic we cannot know how to reduce suffering. When people engage in consistently poor reasoning is just perpetuates the problems that we already have.
I'm not supporting an atheist worldview, mind you, I'm supporting a rational one. I happen to think that a rational worldview results in atheism but it is not necessary. There are plenty of rational Christians, though in my experience their version of god is weaker than those of irrational ones.
I would agree. Good night.
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
That would make sense. Are you saying that atheists have a violent belief?
Originally posted by King Kandy
I'm saying you can't assume two beliefs will have equally violent followers just because they are both humans. Which was the justification you gave for saying that atheists and christians are equally violent.
I don't know about equally violent. The thing they do have in common is a belief that they, alone are right.
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I said just as prone. They could both be peaceful.
Originally posted by King Kandy
And even then, my question of justification remains. We've already established that simply being human does not make belief systems equal. Why do you think that they are equal? The only justification you've given for that, we've already determined doesn't really work.
I never said equal, but you ask as if I did. What is your point?
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I was talking about being confrontational. If you don’t like when Christians are confrontational with you, then why would you do the same?
You have not been paying attention. I do not say that as though you are stupid, but I've certainly been involved in my own part of this angle of the conversation since I first started participating in it. I do not mind being confronted. I have stood in a parking lot for three hours and argued with Mormons until they decided to leave. This hasn't been about confrontation. It has been about placing yourself in an innocent, nonconfrontational position so you can "argue around the intellect" of anyone that disagrees with your religious perspective, because you profess to be "just asking questions" and letting the other person in on some truth you think they're too stupid to accept or figure out for themselves. I get that christians have a mandate to spread their faith. I've only involved myself in this discussion so far as to point out how so not innocent their tactics are meant to be. It's a very calculated and trained way of presenting the argument for their own religious choices. The whole wounded and innocent curious act is just a veil for the proselytizing they've been trained to do. Again, to reference an earlier statement in this thread or another, it's all about getting butts in the pew and making themselves feel more secure in their own choices. Their choices are none of my concern. But, I'm not going to let someone flat out decieve others into believing their academic curiosity has a damn thing to do with expanding their own outlook, especially when coupled with statements about the truth of noah's ark and arguments to everyone's response to their baiting questions. If you think I took the bait, that's fine. I just chose to point out the flaws in it's strategy, not to give it the rope with which to hang my own position. Even you're trying to do that.
Originally posted by King Kandy
But, surely, that doesn't mean that hostile beliefs=peaceful beliefs. I don't see under what logic a belief that has purposely violent tenants would still be equal to one that doesn't.
They don't all interpret in for the sake of hostility, though. That's kind of unfair. Not that that has anything to do with the debate the two of you are actually having.
If everyone in the world was an atheist, the world would be a far better place.
But that's like saying, "If every Mormon followed their beliefs, there would be no such thing as a bad Mormon."
Just the same as an Christian wants to share their good message of happiness, so too does an atheist want to share their good message of happiness.
Some atheists believe that being worried about your actions pissing off a jealous, controlling, God that refuses to assist his own children, is both ludicrous and appalling. While that is not the type of God I believe in, it certainly is the same argument I would make if I were not a theist.
Originally posted by Symmetric ChaosHum... but so can rational thought. I think the harm done is actually rooted elsewhere, in people's moral judgements and emotional motiviations regardless of how rational they are in analyzing reality.
Because religious thinking is justified on irrational grounds and irrational thinking can do a great deal of harm to people.
Originally posted by 753
Hum... but so can rational thought. I think the harm done is actually rooted elsewhere, in people's moral judgements and emotional motiviations regardless of how rational they are in analyzing reality.
I don't know. I doubt that most people would intentionally cause suffering in the world. There are areas where reasonable people can disagree, though.