Originally posted by Deadline
^ Comin man y'know I don't do that 😬 I like discussing these topic but I'm having to frequently disengage from debates because there is far too much testorene. Don't like debating in these threads anymore.
But you must understand that you opened a can of worms without supporting your argument at all and when people called you on it you say you don't want to debate and that's there's "too much testosterone". Obviously people won't take that a honest debate.
Originally posted by Bardock42
But you must understand that you opened a can of worms without supporting your argument at all and when people called you on it you say you don't want to debate and that's there's "too much testosterone". Obviously people won't take that a honest debate.
Theres no reason why you should think that if you're being honest with yourself. The only reason why you would think that is if you are projecting. For example Symm has already started projecting (which he does all the time) and has accused me of doing things that I'm not doing, you've done it before as well. Then you wonder why I don't want to elaborate?
It makes no difference wether I elaborate or clarify my position because most people in these threads don't want to debate they want to argue. Basically you guys get aways murder you generally feel you can do what you like and get away with it.
Originally posted by Deadline
Theres no reason why you should think that if you're being honest with yourself. The only reason why you would think that is if you are projecting. For example Symm has already started projecting (which he does all the time) and has accused me of doing things that I'm not doing, you've done it before as well. Then you wonder why I don't want to elaborate?It makes no difference wether I elaborate or clarify my position because most people in these threads don't want to debate they want to argue. Basically you guys get aways murder you generally feel you can do what you like and get away with it.
Originally posted by Deadline
Theres no reason why you should think that if you're being honest with yourself. The only reason why you would think that is if you are projecting. For example Symm has already started projecting (which he does all the time) and has accused me of doing things that I'm not doing, you've done it before as well. Then you wonder why I don't want to elaborate?It makes no difference wether I elaborate or clarify my position because most people in these threads don't want to debate they want to argue. Basically you guys get aways murder you generally feel you can do what you like and get away with it.
No I'm sorry, but what has factually happened here is you stating something without any support for it, and then you gave a weak excuse why you don't want to back it up, when people point out how what you said was wrong and biased.
I have done absolutely nothing to you and as far as I can tell neither has anyone else, we have civilly and reasonably debated our positions as atheists, you on the other hand vaguely accused us (and atheists in general) of playing semantics and being somehow dishonest, when asked to back up your (so far still baseless) accusations you have just thrown in another insult of us being too rabid and not interested in fair discourse. The atheists have been nothing but straight with you in this thread while you have insulted them and weaseled around with accusations.
You must be trolling.
Originally posted by Bardock42
No I'm sorry, but what has factually happened here is you stating something without any support for it,
Yea you could say that. I said that people play semantics with defintions.
Originally posted by Bardock42
and then you gave a weak excuse why you don't want to back it up, when people point out how what you said was wrong and biased.
No its not a weak excuse I have every reason to behave like that.
Originally posted by Bardock42
I have done absolutely nothing to you and as far as I can tell neither has anyone else, we have civilly and reasonably debated our positions as atheists, you on the other hand vaguely accused us (and atheists in general) of playing semantics and being somehow dishonest, when asked to back up your (so far still baseless) accusations you have just thrown in another insult of us being too rabid and not interested in fair discourse. The atheists have been nothing but straight with you in this thread while you have insulted them and weaseled around with accusations.You must be trolling.
No I'm not trolling and you're being dishonest. In particular I can point you to the thread were both you and Symm kept trying to tell me that Atheism and Theism weren't belief systems and kept accusing me of making an argument which I wasn't making.
Now your probably going to tell me that didn't happen and distort what happened but thats just one example of many.
Originally posted by skekUng
Do you take any responsability for what you say, or is everything you misunderstand some one elses fault?
Yes I do. In particular I could point to you to a debate where Shaky stated that I didn't make my point clear and I then gave him a quote where I had already clarified my position.
In some cases I've said it several times. Of course there are times when it has been my fault but when I say it several times and somebody is still arguing then it's not my fault.
Originally posted by Deadline
Yea you could say that. I said that people play semantics with defintions.No its not a weak excuse I have every reason to behave like that.
No I'm not trolling and you're being dishonest. In particular I can point you to the thread were both you and Symm kept trying to tell me that Atheism and Theism weren't belief systems and kept accusing me of making an argument which I wasn't making.
Now your probably going to tell me that didn't happen and distort what happened but thats just one example of many.
Originally posted by Deadline
How am In the wrong? First of all do you even know the thread I'm refering to?
I honestly don't give a damn what irrelevant thread you're referring to as a means to steer attention away, the point is you're wrong in this thread.
Originally posted by Omega Vision
Trying to say that all Atheists are agnostics and then not being able to prove it
Thank you for reinforcing my point. Yet another example of somebody accusing me of making an argument I'm not when I clearly stated thats not what I'm doing.
Originally posted by King Kandy
You're the one trying to say that all atheists are really agnostics, and i'm the one oversimplifying things?
Originally posted by Deadline
Nope thats not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying is that athiests play semantics with defintion of what an athiest is. People overcomplicate shit and sometimes it's for tactical reasons.
Thats all I need to say really and this is exactly the sort of thing I'm talking about. This is exactly what I said earlier and this is the reason why I didn't feel like elaborating. There is no excuse you can see the quote there in black and white and then he wants to throw accuasations around.
Originally posted by Omega Vision
and then after being called on it trying to dodge by saying people are taking things too seriously is just a douchey way of debating.
and accusing people of making an argument which they haven't made when they have clarified their position in no uncertain terms is douchey way of debating.
Originally posted by Omega Vision
.I honestly don't give a damn what irrelevant thread you're referring to as a means to steer attention away, the point is you're wrong in this thread.
I don't need to because ironically you have pretty much shown the sort of behaviour I'm talking about. If you can't read simple english then I well within my rights not to elaborate. Shit like this happens alot in these forums.
Originally posted by Deadline
For example Symm has already started projecting (which he does all the time) and has accused me of doing things that I'm not doing, you've done it before as well.
How did I do that?
You were talking about how atheists try to use sematics as some kind of vaguely defined tactic, then you quoted a post that did nothing sematic and said it proved your point. It's hard not to question that descision.
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
How did I do that?
Here
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
So what's your tactical reason for playing semantic games?
You are accusing me of doing something I'm not. I'm not playing semantic games I'm accussing certain people of doing it. You were projecting.
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
You were talking about how atheists try to use sematics as some kind of vaguely defined tactic, then you quoted a post that did nothing sematic and said it proved your point. It's hard not to question that descision.
No Symm if you're honest with yourself you can see why I did it. It's easy for me to clarify my position but Omega Vision has clearly illustrated why I don't want to and thats pretty much what both you and Bardock were doing in another thread.
It's not that you don't understand what I'm saying you don't want to.
Originally posted by Deadline
You are accusing me of doing something I'm not. I'm not playing semantic games I'm accussing certain people of doing it. You were projecting.
Sure you were. The moment KK said "atheists are..." and you said "nope" you were playing the semantic game just like he was. Unless of course you were agreeing with his definition by claiming that he was using semantics as a tactic, but then we're back to your ludicrous inability to express yourself (which I think is just a tactic to cover up your poor arguments).
Originally posted by Deadline
No Symm if you're honest with yourself you can see why I did it. It's easy for me to clarify my position but Omega Vision has clearly illustrated why I don't want to and thats pretty much what both you and Bardock were doing in another thread.
So in other words you can't defend your actions but want to play the victim card. Glad we have that cleared up.
Originally posted by Deadline
Yea you could say that. I said that people play semantics with defintions.No its not a weak excuse I have every reason to behave like that.
No I'm not trolling and you're being dishonest. In particular I can point you to the thread were both you and Symm kept trying to tell me that Atheism and Theism weren't belief systems and kept accusing me of making an argument which I wasn't making.
Now your probably going to tell me that didn't happen and distort what happened but thats just one example of many.
...atheism and theism aren't belief systems. You tried there too, to pain atheism in a certain way that suits you, which is just not applicable to the most basic definitions of atheism. Even if that was a matter of opinion, which it is not, we weren't aggressive or offensive towards you in our discussion on the topic. The only one with a clear agenda regarding definitions is you, which is why you have to apply such dishonest and vague tactics, if you have a point you should clearly state it and be willing to support and defend it in discussion with people of a different opinion like we have done. The atheists in this thread have been nothing but forthright about their opinions, the least you can do is return the favor, rather than take shots against us and imply secret agendas and dishonesty. If you want people to understand your position, state it clearly, and don't change it throughout a discussion.
Originally posted by Bardock42
...atheism and theism aren't belief systems.
That post was unclear (however you may decide because of one example that I generally don't express myself properly) but in the thread I was crystal clear. You were trying to tell me that I was saying that atheism and theism were belief systems when I had cleary said in the thread thats not what I was trying to do.
Originally posted by Bardock42what we've been saying from the start is that atheism is not a belief system, and we've been arguing that because this was your initial claim:
Heres what you posted.
Originally posted by Deadline
Its like this, people have said that Theism is a belief system because believing in god leads to other beliefs and actions eg heaven, hell, judgement etc. You could say the same thing for Atheism no afterlife, no judgement etc.
Then you claimed that I was arguing that atheism and theism were belief systems
Originally posted by Bardock42Of course theism isn't a belief system either, so I suppose the argument was flawed from the start.
So to sum up, atheism is not a belief system. Certain belief systems can however have atheist parts or even found themselves on a belief in atheism, however the point seems trivial.
However it was clear from my posts that I initially made that statement and changed it because it was incorrect.
Originally posted by Deadline
Its like this, people have said that Theism is a belief system because believing in god leads to other beliefs and actions eg heaven, hell, judgement etc. You could say the same thing for Atheism no afterlife, no judgement etc.
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
But theism isn't a belief system either, it's a particular belief ("god exists"😉. It just happens to be at the core of things like Christianity, Hinduism, Islam, Judaism, Norse Myth etc
Originally posted by Deadline
Well at any rate you can have beliefs that stem from both atheism and theism.
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Sure, every belief leads to others but that doesn't make the seed belief into an entire system.Take arithmetic. If we pull out the claim "1+1=2" can we call it a "belief system" when it's all alone? Of course we can't, it's obviously just one belief. It lets us prove that 2+2=4 and leads to more complex forms of counting but at the end of the day "1+1=2" is still one particular belief within a system of beliefs.
All systems and axioms work this way.
Just look at religion. Is "thou shalt not kill" a belief system or is it a belief? Is "there is no God but Allah" a belief system or one particular pillar of Islam?
Originally posted by DeadlineYes we already agreed that a belief doesn't make a system. 😬
Originally posted by Bardock42
I know. I don't think it relates to the point as "Religious" is not a belief system, so differences in opinion on fundamental issues make a lot of sense.Perhaps you mean something different, could you elaborate your point?
Originally posted by Deadline
Well its getting a bit late but weve moved on from atheism or theism being a belief system, they're individual beliefs. Thats not my point, if thats what you think I was saying.
There is no excuse. I made my point clear and you were still arguing with me about a point I was not making.
Originally posted by Bardock42
.
You tried there too, to pain atheism in a certain way that suits you, which is just not applicable to the most basic definitions of atheism. Even if that was a matter of opinion, which it is not,
I wasn't trying to do anything and in the end you pretty much agreed with my opinion.
Originally posted by Bardock42
Well, I don't see why we are arguing then. The fact that one could potentially have an atheist belief system is nothing, the examples you've given are different though, like I said, but there's no reason why there couldn't be a belief system based on atheism and that has been pointed out multiple times during the argument.
Of course you were still trying to argue with me that you had pointed out that you can have a belief system based on atheism, when I understood that point.
Originally posted by Bardock42
The atheists in this thread have been nothing but forthright about their opinions, the least you can do is return the favor, rather than take shots against us and imply secret agendas and dishonesty. If you want people to understand your position, state it clearly, and don't change it throughout a discussion.
I have already pretty much demonstrated how you can't comprehend points that have been made crystal clear and you also tried to distort what happened.
Also Omega Vision has actually done exactly what you did in the thread I'm refering to. He basically accused me of acting like a douchebag and accused me of making an argument that I didn't make, despite the fact I said in black and white that I didn't. You are just selectively picking what information you like.
So you're pretty much showing your bias.
So you admit you initially stated that you atheism and theism are belief systems and only later changed it when we showed you that it was incorrect? And then you pulled the same "It's late, I'm tired, can't be bothered, blah blah" when I civilly asked you to explain what your point was now that you had changed your initial wrong point.
I don't see what I did wrong, I talked to you in a fair manner, first about the topic you brought up and were wrong about, and once you realized and changed your stance I asked for clarification and you denied it.
Again you are trying to attack me, for no reason, I have treated you with respect in this and the last thread and have addressed your points and made my opinions clear to you, I don't think you need to pretend you've been victimized, nor that we are biased, because we inspect and debate your arguments.
Originally posted by Bardock42
So you admit you initially stated that you atheism and theism are belief systems and only later changed it when we showed you that it was incorrect?
Thank you for illustrating my point. The point is that you were still accusing me of making an argument I was not making.making. The fact that I changed my arguement is irrelevant. The point is you were still trying to accuse me of making the same argument after I had cleary told you thats not what I was doing. If you correct somebody and they change their argument there is nothing wrong with it, the problem is you were still trying to accuse me of making the same argument after I corrected it. You are selectively picking what information you like.
What do you mean so I admit it? I already did that in the thread.
Originally posted by Bardock42
And then you pulled the same "It's late, I'm tired, can't be bothered, blah blah" when I civilly asked you to explain what your point was now that you had changed your initial wrong point.
Oh I see, so the fact I cleary stated that atheism and theism were not belief systems and then after that you still accused me of making the argument that atheism and theism are belief systems is irrelevant?
Originally posted by Bardock42
I don't see what I did wrong, I talked to you in a fair manner, first about the topic you brought up and were wrong about, and once you realized and changed your stance I asked for clarification and you denied it.
I denied what? I'm not sure what you are refering to but one thing is clear when you asked for clarification I specifically said that atheism and theism were not belief systems. It seems to me you are trying to wriggle out of it.
Now Im not saying I'm perfect but when I make a point crystal clear you are in no position to tell me that I can't express myself properly.
Originally posted by Bardock42
Again you are trying to attack me, for no reason, I have treated you with respect in this and the last thread and have addressed your points and made my opinions clear to you, I don't think you need to pretend you've been victimized, nor that we are biased, because we inspect and debate your arguments.
You were not rude in the thread I am refering to but it did seem you were being argumentative. I wasn't perfect either and I myself did misunderstand some things that inimalist said. You are being rude now because I am giving you clear logically reasons for my behaviour and you are simply trying to distort what happened. When you do something wrong admit it. Theres also the fact that you want to talk about my behaviour while ignoring the behaviours of others. Omega Vision was bang out of order but you're willing to ignore that and focus on me. Biased.
Originally posted by Bardock42
nor that we are biased, because we inspect and debate your arguments.
Yes you are, no you don't.