Originally posted by skekUngIf you're so inclined. It's just ridiculous for us to focus solely on the areas where we disagree, especially when it is in an area where people seldom change their minds. We don't have to agree to disagree but I'd rather do that than argue with someone that I'd probably agree with on most issues. You know as well as I do that we won't agree on the issue of religion. So what? Lets move on.
Am I supposed to scream out the hidden name of god, or something?
Fin.
I am not an atheist, but I believe I can answer this, but in the opposite side of the spectrum. I DO fear the absence of judgement. I grew up believing that when I die I will be eternal, and happy and everything will be amazing. Just recently I started thinking, what if that weren't true? That thought made me panic a bit, I stayed up a lot of the night, most of the nights the next few weeks, thinking about this. I received no reason to doubt my faith, I was simply wondering what will happen if what I believed all my live, was wrong.
So, looking on the opposite end, I would say, yes, if an atheist is sinning, they might fear judgement, not all, but some for sure.
Originally posted by menokokoroIf it's not true, you'll never know it.
I am not an atheist, but I believe I can answer this, but in the opposite side of the spectrum. I DO fear the absence of judgement. I grew up believing that when I die I will be eternal, and happy and everything will be amazing. Just recently I started thinking, what if that weren't true?
Originally posted by menokokoro
I know that, and that is part of what drives me insane!
Right. Exactly. This is the exact motivation that leads an absurd number of people to religious explanations of the universe. It reconciles their cognitive dissonance, which you've just displayed here and aren't alone in feeling, even though the problem itself is inherently irresolvable.
Originally posted by menokokoro
So, looking on the opposite end, I would say, yes, if an atheist is sinning, they might fear judgement, not all, but some for sure.
Sinning (the colloquial usage of it) only has meaning in a religious sense. If an atheist is "sinning" and is worried about possible judgement from a divine being, they aren't actually an atheist.
...
I have yet to see an argument in this thread of a person who would be afraid of judgement who isn't an agnostic or "hedging" theist. Which reinforces the view that I posited on about page 3 that the premise of this thread is ridiculous and almost tautologically self-evident.
Originally posted by Digioh yeah, I didn't think about that, yeah, they would have to be agnostic.
Sinning (the colloquial usage of it) only has meaning in a religious sense. If an atheist is "sinning" and is worried about possible judgement from a divine being, they aren't actually an atheist....
I have yet to see an argument in this thread of a person who would be afraid of judgement who isn't an agnostic or "hedging" theist. Which reinforces the view that I posited on about page 3 that the premise of this thread is ridiculous and almost tautologically self-evident.
before you say anything, I know, I should have read at least a little of the forum, I just wanted to put my 2 cents in.
Originally posted by menokokoro
oh yeah, I didn't think about that, yeah, they would have to be agnostic.before you say anything, I know, I should have read at least a little of the forum, I just wanted to put my 2 cents in.
You're fine. It's just symptomatic of arguments I've seen up to this point. I'm not sure if it's simple misunderstanding, or if people are imposing their own way of viewing the matter onto another group of people whom they don't agree with.
In either case, the most I've see someone say after hearing my points is something akin to "if they weren't secure in their atheism, they could be afraid of judgement." And if they aren't secure in their atheism, they probably aren't actually atheists. An unsure atheist is almost by definition an agnostic. So the answer to the titular question is ridiculously simple, despite the discussion its created (which has been religious but mostly not directly pertaining to the topic).
Originally posted by Digi
And if they aren't secure in their atheism, they probably aren't actually atheists. An unsure atheist is almost by definition an agnostic.
I don't agree with that. A person doesn't have to be a strong Atheist in order to be an Atheist. I mean, I don't doubt that there are some staunch, unwaivering Atheists out there (the kind who not just believe, but "know" there's no god) who don't fear Judgement at all. But I personally know--and have known--Atheists who've told me that sometimes in their lucid moments while jogging, in the shower or on long highway drives, wonder "What if... Just, what if...".
Originally posted by Quiero Mota
I don't agree with that. A person doesn't have to be a strong Atheist in order to be an Atheist. I mean, I don't doubt that there are some staunch, unwaivering Atheists out there (the kind who not just believe, but "know" there's no god) who don't fear Judgement at all. But I personally know--and have known--Atheists who've told me that sometimes in their lucid moments while jogging, in the shower or on long highway drives, wonder "What if... Just, what if...".
I'm not talking about strong atheism. And I think we've had this conversation before. One does not need to be certain of something (i.e. "I know there is no God"😉 in order to be secure in it. And if you aren't secure in your belief (i.e. "I'm not sure"😉 then you're an agnostic. And if you ARE secure in your belief (i.e. "I believe there is no God"😉, then it defies logic to think you'd be afraid of that hypothetical being. It's really very, very simple.
Also, wondering "What If" is not an acceptance of a belief, or even a serious consideration of it. It's musing over a hypothetical. I do it a dozen times a day, on topics ranging from the serious to the mundane to the outright silly (everything from God to super powers). It doesn't mean I'm insecure in my atheism, nor that I fear something I don't believe in. Because, frankly, if so-called atheists are admitting to you that they're seriously pondering the existence of a supreme being, then they again aren't actually atheists in any sense of the term.
And if you aren't secure in your belief (i.e. "I'm not sure"😉 then you're an agnostic.
"Agnostic" generally indicates a belief in the answerability of the question. I know some very convinced agnostics. I myself could be called a very confident [strong] agnostic. (Where the strength of agnosticism refers to the timeframe in which the question will be answered, with strong agnostics generally believing the question to be unanswerable and weak agnostics believing that there is not enough evidence for now.) I know someone who acknowledges the fact that he is not familiar enough with the available evidence to make a decision either way, but he would not qualify as agnostic as I understand the term.
It seems like a mistake to layer two distinct meanings onto one word in such a sensitive subject. "Wishy washy" seems like a better phrase to indicate lack of conviction.
Originally posted by Zampanó
I really dislike this usage of the word. (Oh, hi, my account is "Zampanó" and I'll be posting here today.)"Agnostic" generally indicates a belief in the answerability of the question. I know some very convinced agnostics. I myself could be called a very confident [strong] agnostic. (Where the strength of agnosticism refers to the timeframe in which the question will be answered, with strong agnostics generally believing the question to be unanswerable and weak agnostics believing that there is not enough evidence for now.) I know someone who acknowledges the fact that he is not familiar enough with the available evidence to make a decision either way, but he would not qualify as agnostic as I understand the term.
It seems like a mistake to layer two distinct meanings onto one word in such a sensitive subject. "Wishy washy" seems like a better phrase to indicate lack of conviction.
I'm not trying to get into an argument about the definition of agnosticism, and after a perusal of this post we seem to be in agreement on the term. My point is, and was, simply that if you're strongly considering the possibility of a deity, or are not sure about the matter one way or another, you're going to fall into the realm of agnosticism well before that of abject theism and atheism.
And I'm not talking about strict definitions, but popular usage. I'm much more concerned with the actual sociological application of a word than its textbook definition. The latter is just academic posturing. The former relates directly to the real-world implications of these topics.
...and that all then related back to my central point about the question in the thread's title, but I've made that point and it doesn't apply to your post, so I won't reiterate it.