We need the draft back

Seriously, this is the #1 reason why the "peace" movements in the US (and all the energy behind leftists in general) has lost all credibility in the US. People have really lost the motivation to try and avoid war now that its not their asses that are at risk. If we still had a draft, Afghanistan war would be over faster than you can say "Osama".

I'd have to pinpoint this as the main reason why liberals in general have lost all the energy as a grassroots movement that they had during the 60s. Maybe if the Vietnam war had stayed around a few more years, we would have been able to get all those nice things like free healthcare that most of the western world enjoys.

It'd also give China something else to think about.

Originally posted by King Kandy

I'd have to pinpoint this as the main reason why liberals in general have lost all the energy as a grassroots movement that they had during the 60s. Maybe if the Vietnam war had stayed around a few more years, we would have been able to get all those nice things like free healthcare that most of the western world enjoys.

Yeah. There are definitely multiple levels with how these things interact. It was a complicated period.

"Nah" to everything you said.

No to healthcare, no to you draft solving problems, and no to the vietnam war lasting longer so it could create UHC.

What we really need is less ignorant patriotism being hammered into our children and more actual education about politics.

"No to healthcare" is just ignorance.
"No to draft solving problems", i'm making this thread to discuss that issue. As in, you can't just dismiss it as its the topic.
"No to vietnam war" of course i'm not advocating that it should have continued. It was just an example of how the draft influenced politics.

Education of children isn't happening because children have no will to be educated... for instance, if the draft was still in force, you can bet that students would be self-educating themselves on how to create world peace. It was a key cause of how many students were dropping out from the 60s education system to create a new life for themselves... we need to see that recreated in the present.

Originally posted by King Kandy
"No to healthcare" is just ignorance.

Considering that I've had discussions where I took your side, defended your perspective, and backed it up with facts, I'm entitled to my own opinion and you should agree with it. Generally, I oppose UHC. In comparison to the US's current system, I say it's better.

Originally posted by King Kandy
"No to draft solving problems", i'm making this thread to discuss that issue.

Thanks for telling me. I did not know. 😬

And I said it wouldn't solve the problems you said it would.

Originally posted by King Kandy
As in, you can't just dismiss it as its the topic.

I can and I did.

You say it will solve war problems. I say it won't.

Unless you can provide some hella huge psychological study (credible) my opinion is every bit as valid as yours.

Originally posted by King Kandy
"No to vietnam war" of course i'm not advocating that it should have continued. It was just an example of how the draft influenced politics.

That's not what I said though, is it?

I said this: "and no to the vietnam war lasting longer so it could create UHC."

Also, comparing Afghanistan to Vietnam is not the same at all. Completely different campaigns in both actions and American opinion. Very illogical comparison.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Education of children isn't happening because children have no will to be educated... for instance, if the draft was still in force, you can bet that students would be self-educating themselves on how to create world peace. It was a key cause of how many students were dropping out from the 60s education system to create a new life for themselves... we need to see that recreated in the present.

You're incorrect. Children can't help but learn. They crave it, even. We just have to point them in the right direction.

Here's a review of a book written by a teacher.

http://boingboing.net/2008/09/23/how-children-learn-c.html

"Holt's basic thesis is that kids want to learn, are natural learners, and will learn more if we recognize that and let them explore their worlds, acting as respectful co-learners instead of bosses."

Even if the child does not want to learn math, they still cannot resist learning as they are just at that stage in life where they take everything in. We can do better to point that "power" in the right direction.

KK, how old are you?

Originally posted by dadudemon
You're incorrect. Children can't help but learn. They crave it, even. We just have to point them in the right direction.

Here's a review of a book written by a teacher.

http://boingboing.net/2008/09/23/how-children-learn-c.html

"Holt's basic thesis is that kids want to learn, are natural learners, and will learn more if we recognize that and let them explore their worlds, acting as respectful co-learners instead of bosses."

Even if the child does not want to learn math, they still cannot resist learning as they are just at that stage in life where they take everything in. We can do better to point that "power" in the right direction.

So I take it you've never been in a school in your life?

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
So I take it you've never been in a school in your life?

So I take it you've never been around small children in your life?

Originally posted by dadudemon
So I take it you've never been around small children in your life?

How small? Sure, two year olds can't stop learning but only naive rich people hire tutors for kids that young. By elementary school most of them have stopped giving a shit.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Considering that I've had discussions where I took your side, defended your perspective, and backed it up with facts, I'm entitled to my own opinion and you should agree with it. Generally, I oppose UHC. In comparison to the US's current system, I say it's better.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Thanks for telling me. I did not know. 😬

And I said it wouldn't solve the problems you said it would.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I can and I did.

You say it will solve war problems. I say it won't.

Unless you can provide some hella huge psychological study (credible) my opinion is every bit as valid as yours.

Originally posted by dadudemon
That's not what I said though, is it?

I said this: "and no to the vietnam war lasting longer so it could create UHC."

Also, comparing Afghanistan to Vietnam is not the same at all. Completely different campaigns in both actions and American opinion. Very illogical comparison.

Originally posted by dadudemon
You're incorrect. Children can't help but learn. They crave it, even. We just have to point them in the right direction.

Here's a review of a book written by a teacher.

http://boingboing.net/2008/09/23/how-children-learn-c.html

"Holt's basic thesis is that kids want to learn, are natural learners, and will learn more if we recognize that and let them explore their worlds, acting as respectful co-learners instead of bosses."

Even if the child does not want to learn math, they still cannot resist learning as they are just at that stage in life where they take everything in. We can do better to point that "power" in the right direction.

At any rate, its plain to see that children do not get educated equally well in every environment, and that different children will have different dedication and capacity to learn. Teaching good content is always a good idea.

Originally posted by Mindset
KK, how old are you?

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
By elementary school most of them have stopped giving a shit.

Really? Because that has not been my experience, at all. I think if you said "highschool" you might have a point. Even then, most of them really do not stop giving a sh*t. It's prolly less than half.

Children's desire to learn comes from multiple factors: the way parents treat education, the way their peers treat it, and the way their teachers treat it.

The child that does not want to learn is few and far between.

From my own experience in education, the actual educating part takes care of itself (i.e. they will educate themselves) if you provide a valid personal motivation for them (or they provide it from themselves). I'm not really in agreement with Kandy in this thread, but I'll agree that if the draft were back education about political processes would increase exponentially, and it would have nothing to do with anyone specifically trying to educate young people.

dadudemon's "want" to learn is a bit too amorphic for my taste. I don't really know what you mean when you say they want to learn. They will learn naturally if presented with materials, sure. Whether or not they'd choose it for themselves is another matter entirely.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Why do you ask?

At any rate, this isn't really about education. How do you feel about the way the draft influences political development? What do you disagree with me on?

i'm down with the draft..

i did my time which means my brother doesnt have to do it...

plus it would make ppl think twice b4 goin to war when "their sons and daughters could be sent to battle..

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
So I take it you've never been in a school in your life?

Originally posted by dadudemon
So I take it you've never been around small children in your life?

actually, you are both right [so speketh neuroscience, woooooo], however, as humans are social animals, we crave interaction with our social groups, not with teachers.

Young children want to play with other children and be sociable, forcing them to sit in class is actually a phenomenal behavioural control humans are capable of.

While it is true childrens brains are built to be plastic to new experiences, the natural learning environment is much different than ours, in a way that simply "motivating" the child in a different way doesn't help.

imho it really is a catch 22, the ways that speak best to a young mind are not really those that appeal to any structured educational institution, but at the same time, that is really the best way we have to ensure the technical information about the world our children as citizens know...

EDIT:

Originally posted by King Kandy
At any rate, this isn't really about education. How do you feel about the way the draft influences political development? What do you disagree with me on?

whoops..

could you explain your theory a bit? is it that, with a draft people would be more socially aware and thus more demanding of UHC? or do you think more people in general would believe in it? and why?

I just don't get the jump....

Originally posted by King Kandy
No, in this case, you would have to support your point. I would be willing to debate with you about how UHC is better, but if you're admitting that its better than the current system, you already agree with me; the US would have been better off if we had received UHC.

It's certainly better than the current US system but it is not better than a hybrid system.

UHC = a better version of fail than the current US system.

Hybrid system a la France of Switzerland = the best option for a large country like ours.

So when I say that a UHC system is not something we should have, it's because I believe that and generally, other countries back up my opinion on that.

Case in point: the UK system failed and they had to make a large hybrid overhaul back in the late 80s, early 90s.

Originally posted by King Kandy
But you didn't provide any actual arguments to support that. Essentially you just unproductively entered and said "nuh-uh". I don't see why i've earned such insulting behavior when you've previously been quite civil with me.

I sure did. The Afghanistan conflict is not a logical comparison to the Vietnam one and does not support your "supporting" arguments.

1. We do not need more troops there than we already have in Afghanistan.
2. Some Americans support bringing the draft back to fight terrorism.
3. Some Americans want a Switzerland type of military service system, anyway. There are benefits and negatives to that.

I never once had "insulting behavior." If you want insulting behavior, argue with Zeal. I never said you were ignorant. I never said that you did not know what you were talking about. Why are you being like this? It is annoying and derails your thread. I have every reason to legitimately make my claims as you have.

You said bring the draft back for the Afghanistan conflict to help bring peace because of the liberal complainers and used Vietnam's conflict to support your argument.

I said pretty much said "no" and called it, correctly so, an illogical comparison. I said a better way would be to better educate our young with less blind patriotism and more "self-thinking."

Originally posted by King Kandy
But at this point you are not even really giving any opinion that can be discussed. Some generic negation doesn't really add anything since you really haven't given any actual ideas related to it that can be discussed.

No, I've done more than enough. Ignoring it does not make it go away.

You have made a claim. I have negated your claim and it's supporting arguments and requested you better support your arguments. It is for you to support your points, not me to support your points.

Please cite your reasons for needing the draft back and/or use logical comparisons.

Originally posted by King Kandy
They are very different, and one of these differences is the draft. Yes, no two conflicts are exactly alike, but we can't help but draw comparisons as best we can from the available data. In either case, it seems obvious to me that if people were getting drafted, they would have greater reason to oppose the war--what do you actually feel is flawed about that logic?

1. You ignored the portion in my post that points out the weird and strange insertion of UHC into the discussion.
2. You can try to at least draw much better comparisons.
3. That was not your original argument. Your original argument was to institute a draft for a war that does not need one or for wars that may or may not happen using money we definitely do not have. And, a draft is very much the incorrect item that you want: you want mandatory service attendance similar to Switzerlands. The whole point of a draft is to create military force that is needed to fight a war. That is not needed and creating a draft would result in no new soldiers being created: we have have to have a need, first, before a draft would work. You'd draft them and then send them back home or something? Seems very illogical and out of place.

Again,

"Nah" to everything you said.

"No to healthcare[UHC], no to your draft solving problems, and no to the vietnam war lasting longer so it could create UHC."

What we really need is less ignorant patriotism being hammered into our children and more actual education about politics.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Education is an infamously pseudoscientific field and has had many "fads" associated with it over the years, that I could post many different perspectives on how people learn. It is comforting to believe children will take in everything, yet at the same time, teachers do dismally when trying to scientifically prove certain approaches actually work; I would be skeptical of believing claims, and even data (there have been quite a few cases of forged data in the educational research field) that is put out in regards to anything in that field.

Okay, but that really is a strawman argument. Can you provide

What we really need is less ignorant patriotism being hammered into our children and more actual education about politics.

Disagree with that.

Entire psychological fields of study are dedicated to understand child development. We know, fairly solidly, that children are "wired" to learn. This is not debatable. So any number of strawman arguments you can come up with to negate a point that was not really where I intended this discussion to go, is fruitless and meaningless. Actually address the real point I made or ignore the point and move on.

Originally posted by King Kandy
At any rate, its plain to see that children do not get educated equally well in every environment, and that different children will have different dedication and capacity to learn. Teaching good content is always a good idea.

Okay. Another thread?

Obviously, it is quite clear that you have no intentions of an actual discussion, KK, and you would rather take some frustrations out on anyone that you can sink your liberal teeth into. I am not that person and I will not continue this discussion further unless you can support your very illogical reasons (see my above post for why the very basic premise is illogical.)

Originally posted by Digi
dadudemon's "want" to learn is a bit too amorphic for my taste. I don't really know what you mean when you say they want to learn. They will learn naturally if presented with materials, sure. Whether or not they'd choose it for themselves is another matter entirely.

I mean that children are naturally curious about their world and want to learn about it. There are exceptions but those are exceptions, not the norm.