Originally posted by Q99
I think some people overestimate how much power increases. If you get immunity to someone else's attack at, say, 2 mil difference, then you don't have to have lots of multiplication, and by the end of Z none of the main cast is necessarily even 2-3x as strong as Frieza Saga Goku. All that's needed for the fights to go as they do is 'strong enough to vastly overpower the foe,' which doesn't need to translate into huge percentage change.(Also, people definitely underestimate how big and tough stuff in space is. If a blast can one-shot the Earth, a blast a hundred times as powerful is doing squat to Jupiter, for example, and in turn the Sun wouldn't notice attacks a hundred times as strong as what's needed to blow up Jupiter, and so on. Of course, planets and moons in DB in general seem to be extremely fragile. None of the non-planet/moon destroying attacks show so much as a thousanth of a percent of the needed destructive power to blow on a planet. Earth is Really Tough).
Or if you look at it from another stand point, a common stand point like concentrated energy. Surfer has destroyed a planet on panel but are we to assume that every blast that surfer shoot would destroy a planet even though some of the blast that he shoot is far more powerful than planetary. Like the blast that he was using to protect galactus, it did next to nothing o the planet but he admitted that he was giving his all.
I think that every blast that frieza shot during his fight with goku was more powerful than anything his previous incarnations has done but it was more of a concentrated blast.
Roshi has destroyed moons but he was outstanded at goku kamehameha blast which did nothing to the entire area him and piccolo were fight at because again, its more concentrated. Everything doesn't have to destroy the universe in order for it to be powerful. Look at the thanos and odin fight. Odin has destroyed galaxies and admitted on panel that he was going all out while fight thanos but asgard didn't suffer a scratch. Look at odin fighting a celestial... odin was amped by the destoyer armor fighting against numerous of celestials on a planet and they were going all out but nothing happened to the planet.
Look at thor when he fought an enraged celestial. The celestial blast didn't even destroy the area that he was blasting thor at... it did nothing and these are cube level beings. If we always base things off of total destruction (blast), especially in dbz, then nappa hand >>thanos.
Originally posted by Q99
I think some people overestimate how much power increases. If you get immunity to someone else's attack at, say, 2 mil difference, then you don't have to have lots of multiplication, and by the end of Z none of the main cast is necessarily even 2-3x as strong as Frieza Saga Goku. All that's needed for the fights to go as they do is 'strong enough to vastly overpower the foe,' which doesn't need to translate into huge percentage change.
Sort of.
It's more like you need to be "x%" stronger to ignore attacks. But even that doesn't hold true.
But, yeah, your very last statement is exactly what I've stated numerous times as to Toriyama's logic.
Originally posted by Q99
(Also, people definitely underestimate how big and tough stuff in space is. If a blast can one-shot the Earth, a blast a hundred times as powerful is doing squat to Jupiter, for example, and in turn the Sun wouldn't notice attacks a hundred times as strong as what's needed to blow up Jupiter, and so on. Of course, planets and moons in DB in general seem to be extremely fragile. None of the non-planet/moon destroying attacks show so much as a thousanth of a percent of the needed destructive power to blow on a planet. Earth is Really Tough).
My power scaling worked as follows:
Roshi around a power level of 100 could destroy the moon and had plenty of energy to spare after he was done.
150,000,000 power-level for SSJ goku: the weakest adult SSJ form we saw.
150,000,000/100=1,500,000 times more powerful than that form of Roshi.
So Goku SHOULD have been able to (Ki is a direct measure of "spirit energy"😉 destroy a solid object roughly 1,500,000 more massive than the moon (assuming the same density...but doesn't take into considering that an object of sufficient mass at a certain density will collapse in on itself and form a neutron star or a black hole...but bare with me as we scale.)
That would be 2,605,500,000 KM radius assuming the same average density as the moon (using the average radius of the moon.)
If we include the distance of Pluto, the total distance from the center of the sun is 5,900,000,000 KM. Remove pluto and that distance becomes 4,496,000,000 KM. (Because Pluto is no longer a planet.)
So we end up with a blast that should be a bit above casual, being able to destroy an object who's density being equivalent to the very dense moon's equal to being a 2.61 billion mile radius. That's a MASSIVE object. That's being able to destroy an object a bit over half the size of our "modeled" solar system (excluding things like the Oort Cloud).
That's absurdly huge. If we go by my other estimates of a 20-50 times jump at each powerup in the SSJ category, we end up with very very large destruction.
I'll calculate it out for low end and high end:
2,605,500,000 * 20 (complete SSJ) * 20 (ASSJ) * 20 (FPSSJ) * 20 (SSJ2) * 20 (SSJ3) = 2,605,500,000 * 20^5 = 8,337,600,000,000,000 km
A lightyear is 9.46 trillion km or, in expanded form 9,460,000,000 km.
The Milkyway galaxy is about 100,000 lightyears across. To find how many km that is, 100,000 * 9,460,000,000 = 946,000,000,000,000 km
To see how many galaxies the size of milkyway a blast should be destroying, divide our low-end estimate of our scaled moon-sized object being destroyed by the size of our Milkyway in km
8,337,600,000,000,000/946,000,000,000,000 = 8.81
That means that SSJ3 Goku should be destroying 8.81 galaxies, no problem. That makes sense since his Ki Energy was felt across the entire universe, all the way on the other side. However, the scaling isn't to be so...
That also means that it is not far fetched (If much FTL is applied) to have Broly destroying one galaxy at a time, but that also means that he is stronger than SSJ2, but not nearly as strong as SSJ3 (which means that I would have to concede to Kento our argument we had about 2 years back...but it doesn't apply due to the other things we discussed.)
To redo the whole thing with the high end estimate of 50:
2,605,500,000 * 50^5 = 814,218,750,000,000,000 km.
814218750000000000/946,000,000,000,000 = 860.7 Sized Milkyway galaxies in one above average attack.
So when I said a casual blast should be able destroy whole portions of a galaxy, when deflected or dodged, I was serious. This is why there is lots of power-scaling issues with DB. It got ****ed up along the way. Toriyama tried to "retcon" I believe when he introduced that Majin Buu energy requirements with his statement about how much energy it took to destroy a planet...but that takes a crap all over all sorts of logic, namely, Roshi's blast was a bit more than 1/10th of Majin Buu's power which is plain ridiculous.
We will never know how strong dbz characters are because Toriyama himself stated that their strength became more inconsistent as he kept drawing.
Here is a recent interview of Toriyama
http://www.kanzentai.com/trans-bc_r02.php?m=01&id=interview#link
Originally posted by kbclassof09
We will never know how strong dbz characters are because Toriyama himself stated that their strength became more inconsistent as he kept drawing.Here is a recent interview of Toriyama
http://www.kanzentai.com/trans-bc_r02.php?m=01&id=interview#link
Cool. Thanks for posting that. 😄
So Goku SHOULD have been able to (Ki is a direct measure of "spirit energy"😉 destroy a solid object roughly 1,500,000 more massive than the moon (assuming the same density...but doesn't take into considering that an object of sufficient mass at a certain density will collapse in on itself and form a neutron star or a black hole...but bare with me as we scale.)That would be 2,605,500,000 KM radius assuming the same average density as the moon (using the average radius of the moon.)
You don't multiply radius for calculating increase in mass (or rather, volume is what you're doing)- square cube rule and all, volume increases much faster than radius. It's 4/3 pi radius cubed to go from radius to volume.
The moon is 21.9 billion cubic kilometers. You'd then multiply that by the number if you wanted to go purely by volume.
But the masses are known, so I'll just use them-
The mass of the moon is 7.36 × 10^22 kilograms
The mass of the sun is 1.98892 × 10^30 kilograms
Or in other words, the mass of the sun has 8 more 0s at the end of it.
Meaning 1,500,000 times the mass of the moon is a lot less than one sun.
And the sun's a small star compared to the gas giants.
Originally posted by Q99
You don't multiply radius for calculating increase in mass (or rather, volume is what you're doing)- square cube rule and all, volume increases much faster than radius. It's 4/3 pi radius cubed to go from radius to volume.
No, I was using radius and radius only. Not mass. Not volume. Radius. We already know the volume and mass. There's no need to expand to those extra complications as we only want a radius of a blasts effective range: not the amount of matter it can vaporize. Why? Because: "we only want a radius of a blasts effective range"
Also, you could have called me out on the 100,000 light years because I should have divided that by 2: that's the only thing I did wrong.
What I did was correct minus the 100,000 light year thing.
Now, if you want to calculate out the amount of matter in can vaporize, good luck trying to do that for plasma which is not a solid like rock is.
Originally posted by Q99
The moon is 21.9 billion cubic kilometers. You'd then multiply that by the number if you wanted to go purely by volume.
Unnecessary as we only need a radius. The Galaxy is very very flat so there was no point in complicating things beyond "a radius of a blasts effective range."
Originally posted by Q99
But the masses are known, so I'll just use them-The mass of the moon is 7.36 × 10^22 kilograms
The mass of the sun is 1.98892 × 10^30 kilograms
Or in other words, the mass of the sun has 8 more 0s at the end of it.
Meaning 1,500,000 times the mass of the moon is a lot less than one sun.
And the sun's a small star compared to the gas giants.
You forgot all about density which is very important. The sun, excluding the atmospheres which are really low density, has a really high density.
The moon is going to be more "expansive" than the sun. Again, we have to forget about the photosphere, chromosphere, etc. in order to get things more in mind of what is actually the sun.
The sun is 162.2 g/cm^3 and the moon is 3.3464 g/cm^3. That's a major difference.
Since we know what was blown up, we should stick with that. No need to over-complicate things by adding in mass when we only need to compare the blasts on scale with a galaxy.
Also, the sun is made of plasma. The smaller blasts would would probably not throw off the hydrostatic equilibrium (but would cause the sun to burn much hotter for a period of time and, therefore, shorten it's life and kill all life on a planet due to the increase in energy output) but the larger ones definitely would cause a violent explosion.
Which makes me think: they could have people star bust a star system which would be a much more effective way to destroy life.
But, if you want to do mass straight up, you can. It would be very easy.
Mass of the sun:
73477000000000000000000 kg
Scale it for high and low:
73477000000000000000000 * 20^5 = 235126400000000000000000000000 or 2.35 x 10^29 kg
73477000000000000000000 * 50^5 = 2.2961562500000000000000000000000 or 2.29 x 10^31 kg
That's not the right way to measure it, however, as the blast is spherical, does it's job thoroughly, meaning, there's definitely room to spare, and the galaxy is mostly empty space and is relatively flat.
Mass is pretty much the only thing that does matter; It determines how much energy is needed to move something (or in other words, how much destructive power is needed to blow something apart), not volume or density, except insomuch as they inform mass.
Area is not what determines how destructive something is.
Originally posted by Q99
Mass is pretty much the only thing that does matter; It determines how much energy is needed to move something (or in other words, how much destructive power is needed to blow something apart), not volume or density, except insomuch as they inform mass.Area is not what determines how destructive something is.
Incorrect and I've already explained why. It's pretty simple.
"we only want a radius of a blast's effective range." We don't want to know how much matter it can vaporize as we already know that. Additionally, the galaxy is mostly empty space. Being able to vape a shit ton of matter but not being able to reach the matter is very pointless: we already know how much it can vape and at what size. We just need to scale that SIZE up through the end of DBZ and then see if that scales up in SIZE against the galaxy. If it does, badda-boom, my comparison worked (which I already knew before showing you, it worked.)
Had the analogy I made been "should have been destroying masses equivalent to a quarter of a spiral galaxy", you'd have a point. My analogy was a an analogy of distance, not vaporization. I've already done your mass approach to the problem, as well. It's useless since we do not know how far how the blast will extend and applies differently to different types of matter. It will not vape all types but we do not that it will functionally destroy everything within the blast radius: that's what matters. (pun intended.)
Also, "radius" is not "area". That would be 2*pi*r for a circle OR 4*pi*r^2. We also did not discuss blast volume because: "The Galaxy is very very flat so there was no point in complicating things beyond "a radius of a blasts effective range." We also did not discuss mass because the majority of the Galaxy's mass is not the "bright stuff." It's stuff we can't see: dark matter. It cannot be "vaporized." Additionally, the galaxy can be said to extend up to 100 parsecs from the center, but I only count the "visible" galaxy to be the target of destruction in the comparison. Why? Because that's where planets are and that's where life could be. So, I'm only using a very small fraction of the actual mass of the galaxy to make the comparison. In actuality, I'm only comparing the distance of the blast radius and that's it: what ever falls within the blast radius is gone, as far as life is concerned. If you want to place arbitrary and incorrectly placed importance of mass, you can: it's just an illogical application for proving my comparison. If you want to compare the amount of mass that is destroyed, I've done that for you, already. Again, that's useless as we would not know how far out that "damage" would extend into the "empty" galaxy.
All of those caculations that you all just put together are wrong when you basically have someone with a power level of 350 over powering another persons blast and their power level was 325. The smallest gap in power made a difference so goku as a super saiyan 3 should be able to generate a higher percent of power vs roshi than what was shown in your caculations.
The only reason none of this was shown in dbz was due to the fighters ki control and plot but we also have scenes in dbz where a simple power up was stated as being capable of destroying a planet and a simple ki blast having enough power to destroy earth.
You have two points/ways to look at this... look at dbz power scaling/levels. One way is believing that the story was inconsistent BUT looking at it from tghat point of view is basically down grading every dbz character when its a KNOWN fact that every dbz character have complete control of their ki energy so I am pretty sure they are capable of making each blast more or less exploding like with the control that they have but still having this said attack being multitudes more powerful than a planet desroying attack.
Overall, toriyama did an amazing job on dbz characters and I do agree to an extent with the inconsistency but I just think that a lotg of people just do not want to accept how powerful these character were via power level scaling which akira himself stated that he put into place for us to use on how powerful a character is.
By the way kb class, it was never stated that dbz strength was inconsistent in that scan, he said that he was trying to find a way for the next villian to be more power than the previous villian and I can truly understand his view when you have people like frieza at his weakest being able to shed planets with his index finger... what kind of power does the next one suppose to have?
Originally posted by Black bolt z
DBZ characters don't have that great physical strength.And the absolute highest DBZ character ever wouldn't even be above skyfather.
You see, these types of people is the reason dbz is downplayed.
How in the WORLD doesn't goku hae great strength when as a child he was a clear 100 tonner? Think black bolt, use that mind of yours. Goku was amazingly power physically.
Now the skyfather comment.. I agree and that's only due to his versatility, he isn't versatile enough.
Originally posted by NemeBro
Power Level has never scaled well.All it ever showed was who could beat up who. Nothing more.
It also showed who could generate more power.
Example... goku blast over powering piccolo/junior blast.
Goku blast over powering vegeta blast.
Piccolo blast over powering 2nd form frieza blast.
Because gohun power level dropped, Cell blast almost over powered gohun blast until vegeta interviened.
It has been shown that with a higher power level comes more output of ki energy. You are just ignoring it. Now show me an example that contradicts what I said THEN you might have an argument.
Originally posted by carver9
It also showed who could generate more power.Example... goku blast over powering piccolo/junior blast.
Goku blast over powering vegeta blast.
Piccolo blast over powering 2nd form frieza blast.
Because gohun power level dropped, Cell blast almost over powered gohun blast until vegeta interviened.
It has been shown that with a higher power level comes more output of ki energy. You are just ignoring it. Now show me an example that contradicts what I said THEN you might have an argument.
/argument.
sappovich
/argument.
Guildo
/argument.
Originally posted by Gecko4lif
The andriods./argument.
sappovich
/argument.
Guildo
/argument.
So guildo unleashed more energy out put than someone more powerful than him? I can't even remember guildo blasting anything.
Goku and piccolo went "blast for blast"... goku enegy OVER POWERED piccolo power output because Goku was more powerful (his power level was higher).
When has guildo shot a blast at someone and someone shooting a blast at guildo and both blast colliding with each other but guildo blast over powering said persons blast even though he was weaker?
This never happened with the androids either.
Originally posted by carver9
So guildo unleashed more energy out put than someone more powerful than him? I can't even remember guildo blasting anything.Goku and piccolo went "blast for blast"... goku enegy OVER POWERED piccolo power output because Goku was more powerful (his power level was higher).
When has guildo shot a blast at someone and someone shooting a blast at guildo and both blast colliding with each other but guildo blast over powering said persons blast even though he was weaker?
This never happened with the androids either.
You said It has been shown that with a higher power level comes more output of ki energy
The android were in the millions as far as strength goes and they dont even have the energy feats of early dragon ball goku.
Originally posted by Gecko4lif
You said It has been shown that with a higher power level comes more output of ki energyThe android were in the millions as far as strength goes and they dont even have the energy feats of early dragon ball goku.
I don't believe you get what I am saying. Do you know what I mean by "colliding of ki energy?"
Example... when vegeta shot his gallack gun and goku shot his kamehameha and both blast hitting each other which ended with goku blast over powering vegeta blast due to goku being more powerful.
Do you understand this?
The only reason goku blast over powered vegeta blast was because goku power level was higher. With a higher power level comes more ki. What I am asking you for is proof that this isn't true. Show me someone with a weaker power level over powering someones ki energy attack with a higher power level.