Originally posted by rotiart
So the argument is then that the Phoenix force is another name for the energies of the big bang. That any "firebird" we see is a manifestation of the representation of the energies of the Phoenix force Aka big bang energies. That this entire time we have referred to the Phoenix force as an entity for which it can be ranked against living tribunal....The energies of the big bang are also called the power primordial... Which means that it is the same as the Phoenix force. The manifestations or avatars of the Phoenix force are abstract representations of a concept, just like eternity represents time, infinity space, death death and oblivion the void...
As you've essentially verified is that in 616, the avatar for the energies of creation is the Phoenix force. That this firebird/Phoenix represents the energies called the Phoenix force/big bang energies/ power primordial.
And as since since the elders and primordial beings all use the same wineries you cannot verify that Rachel grey or Jean grey 616 versions have full access to the entire Phoenix force because as you've clearly shown no two draw on the same reserves. And yet while the concept of these energies is called the Phoenix (not Phoenix force) to represent the energies of creation, it is not the final word on it.
Jean grey, racket grey, etc all has access to an avatar and not the whole Phoenix force. And we don't know how much power each person has access to. And you've been comparing a energy type rather than an entity against another entity. Good job.
Try and verify the existence of the true Phoenix force without having shown an universal avatar. You can't. Thus each firebird is as valid as any representation of eternity. And that means none of the avatars are muktiversal... But the energies that make up the multiverse... Are muktiversal..
Im not entirely sure what youre saying in a lot of this because the points arent exactly clear.
The Phoenix Force is a multiversal entity that manifests at a universal level as the Big Bang.
The Big Bang is the formless non sentient universal manifestation of the Force. However the Force exists and operates outside of reality as well.
It is of time and space and yet simultaneously beyond:
The multiversal Phoenix Consciousness resides in the White Hot Room beyond reality from where it empowers hosts and avatars to do its work across existence:
The Phoenix Force isnt an avatar of the energies of creation. The Phoenix Force is the energies of creation who manifests through firebird avatars and allows hosts to wield a portion of its powers.
The firebird is an expression of the sentience of the Phoenix Force within reality. It is not the sum total of it as was incorrectly believed by many.
Hosts are bonded to portions of the Phoenix Force, avatars. How much of the Force they possess or have access to is down to the Phoenix Consciousness.
The Power Primordial isnt one and the same as the Big Bang. It is derivative power source composed from remnants of the Big Bang energies that still permeate the universe. So the sum total of the Power Primordial is not the Big Bang.
The avatars of the Phoenix Force are not representations of a concept. That you have wrong. That is the difference between the Force and the abstracts. The energies of creation are not a concept, they are real, literal, tangible. The Phoenix Force is the ACTUAL energies. Following the Big Bang concepts such as time, space, death, etc become relevant and so are spawned the abstracts. Concepts who over time form sentience and tap into the energies of creation that is the Phoenix Force. That is the difference between a universal manifestation of the Force and Eternity for example. The Force is the literal sum and substance of all that is, whilst Eternity is the concept of all along the timeline, that was given meaning following the creation event. He like all within a reality tap into the universal manifestation of the Phoenix Force.
As for your point about hosts and so on not having the final word, if its the Phoenix Forces power of course they do. Jean Grey as the White Crown Phoenix is the highest ranking host in the Phoenix Corps. She has access to more power than is summed up by the Forces universal manifestation which is why she was able to casually wipe out 150 years of timeline and manipulate 616 in her palm with total control of its energy and matter. Rachel has access to less power however as shown in Excalibur, disrupt her connection with the Force and the universe is a void. No abstracts, just nothing. The Force is the energies of creation, it is much more than its Big Bang manifestation at a universal level. It can give its hosts access to more power than said manifestation which spawns the abstracts.
Originally posted by quanchi112
I already have as have other posters. You have failed to respond to my last post and it's been over for a while now.Prove Phoenix is even above Galactus in a direct confrontation. I mean since your point is we don't know whether the Lt could have defeated the ig then prove the phoenix is above Galactus. Start there.
Look back on my posts I made it plain as day my argument. Same challenge for you to prove the Phoenix is above Galactus and we can proceed from there.
Can you show me an instance of where LT has bested Galactus in combat. Or where Eternity has bested Galactus in combat? 😖hifty:
Do we need to see those specific match ups to know who is greater or more powerful or do we go by feats? 😄
Galactus is a mere planet eater, he was made Galactus through the energies of creation which is the Phoenix Force. Phoenix has done feats from eating stars, to destroying timelines, to manipulating the entire universe in her hand and you want to try and credibly argue that the Force is not beyond Galactus.
You have no credibility, your arguments are weak, unless you change your tune and post some well backed counter arguments as opposed to your biased opinion i will not give you or your posts any consideration. Youre just not worth my time 🙁
Enjoy your day 😉
well, i dont know what it is you are specifically tryin to argue but i can pretty much punch holes in your logic.
Pheonix being retconned to what it is today wasnt always in the same ballpark as Galactus. now we have the variation of the phoenix force the retardation of its explanation.
anyone that can step out of the universe to a higher plane can just as easily grasp the U in their hands.
you dont even have to step out of the U to do that but simply find items that represent the physical manifestation of the U, like: Mkraan Crystal.
aside from that a lot of the abstracts use M bodies to interact with the MU.
for decades prior to these new writers Galactus was equal to eternity and Death and his creation was through his own universe's "eternity not the Phoenix force itself unless that too has been retconned as well and i should throw my comic of his origin.
like to point out that Galactus has been able to eat mephisto's realm, threatening another dimension/reality all in itself.
Galactus has also been able to leave the Universe to higher planes and converse with other entities.
case you cant tell i hate what they did with the phoenix force
Originally posted by King Castle
well, i dont know what it is you are specifically tryin to argue but i can pretty much punch holes in your logic.Pheonix being retconned to what it is today wasnt always in the same ballpark as Galactus. now we have the variation of the phoenix force the retardation of its explanation.
anyone that can step out of the universe to a higher plane can just as easily grasp the U in their hands.
you dont even have to step out of the U to do that but simply find items that represent the physical manifestation of the U, like: Mkraan Crystal.
aside from that a lot of the abstracts use M bodies to interact with the MU.
for decades prior to these new writers Galactus was equal to eternity and Death and his creation was through his own universe's "eternity not the Phoenix force itself unless that too has been retconned as well and i should throw my comic of his origin.
like to point out that Galactus has been able to eat mephisto's realm, threatening another dimension/reality all in itself.
Galactus has also been able to leave the Universe to higher planes and converse with other entities.
case you cant tell i hate what they did with the phoenix force
Throughout new X-men, Grant Morrisons run, they spoke of the developing telekinetic power Jean was displaying with her Phoenix manifestation, throughout the series it developed, resulting in her transmuting asteroids in spaceships, telekinetically slowing down the atomization of a mutant to study it, telekinetically amputating a timeline before the infamous feat of manipulating the atoms of the universe. There is precedence given for such a high level of tk immediately before the universe in the palm feat. Furthermore she is told to bring the universe into the crystal, we see what we're told is the universe manifesting in her hands and the Force stating that she telekinetic control of the atoms of the universe. The feat is unprecedented and was done casually.
Galactus going to Mephistos pocket realm and threatening to consume it is not a suitable analogy.
But yes i hate what they did with the Force in the 90's, however i loved Grant Morrisons run, he returned it to being apart of Jean Greys mutation. Hate Greg Paks interpretation though 🙁
Originally posted by rotiartlittle does parker kno, that mephisto wouldve never let aunt may die, because if she dies; the omniverse will implode
Just to be clear toaa - the one above all refers to the being lt responds to... However it is not to be confused with the celestial also named toaa... Who is not even the most powerful...Also... Aunt may wins.
Originally posted by rotiart
I'm not sure how you can make the claim the phoenix force is just a firebird avatar on one hand and then when it benefits you the avatar has access to Te full power.Isn't that a but of a double standard?
Not at all. Not once did i say that any of the hosts could draw on its full power, i said the hosts each host a portion of the Phoenix Force and that the amount of its power they can draw on is determined by the the Phoenix Consciousness.
That is how Jeans portion can get blown up and shattered and yet you have Rachel and Korvus wielding their own unaffected portions.
Originally posted by GalacticStormNo, but it's implied on panel and very clear both crap all over Galactus. There is no such direct implication with the Phoenix force. In fact Thanos with the ig stated Eternity is greater than all the other abstracts which included Galactus and that he was the superior force in the universe until the ig was used in unison. I mean did you read the ig story at all ?
Can you show me an instance of where LT has bested Galactus in combat. Or where Eternity has bested Galactus in combat? 😖hifty:Do we need to see those specific match ups to know who is greater or more powerful or do we go by feats? 😄
Galactus is a mere planet eater, he was made Galactus through the energies of creation which is the Phoenix Force. Phoenix has done feats from eating stars, to destroying timelines, to manipulating the entire universe in her hand and you want to try and credibly argue that the Force is not beyond Galactus.
You have no credibility, your arguments are weak, unless you change your tune and post some well backed counter arguments as opposed to your biased opinion i will not give you or your posts any consideration. Youre just not worth my time 🙁
Enjoy your day 😉
Your own arguments turned against you it's quite humorous to see you sputter and fail. Galactus seeing he's just a planet eater is ignoring his entire continuity and his role in the universe.
I guess you can't even go by your own logic here. Galact>>>Phoenix force.
Originally posted by quanchi112
No, but it's implied on panel and very clear both crap all over Galactus. There is no such direct implication with the Phoenix force. In fact Thanos with the ig stated Eternity is greater than all the other abstracts which included Galactus and that he was the superior force in the universe until the ig was used in unison. I mean did you read the ig story at all ?Your own arguments turned against you it's quite humorous to see you sputter and fail. Galactus seeing he's just a planet eater is ignoring his entire continuity and his role in the universe.
I guess you can't even go by your own logic here. Galact>>>Phoenix force.
And has it not been stated on panel that the Phoenix Force is second only to the Creator and that it is the sum and substance off that is. So if you still cant comprehend the implications then youre out of your league. Dont debate with me 😂
Originally posted by GalacticStormWhen was the phoenix force compared directly to Eternity ? Never. Not eve ngreater than Galactus whereas Eternity was compared in the same story as Galactus as far greater. That's the difference. Phoenix isn't anywhere near big G let alone true heavyweights like the ig or Lt.
And has it not been stated on panel that the Phoenix Force is second only to the Creator and that it is the sum and substance off that is. So if you still cant comprehend the implications then youre out of your league. Dont debate with me 😂
Originally posted by rotiart
I'm not sure how you can make the claim the phoenix force is just a firebird avatar on one hand and then when it benefits you the avatar has access to Te full power.
Phoenix Force is Phoenix Force, firebird it's just a portion of it that avatars use it.
It depends on Phoenix Force how much it empowers them.
Originally posted by Mr MasterThis pertains to what we were discussing since most both agree it's these two titans who represent ultimate power.
Sorry Leo,
let me just add this so innocent onlookers do not end up confused about Beyonder.Actually friend, the Beyonder had limited himself greatly as we all know.
There wasn't any limitations except for the one he himself imposed.
Death was erased, then re-created just as easily ...
even under the blanket of his self-imposed limitation.A for Miss D ... she fears Beyonder ...
... just like the LT & all the Multiverse:
Which is why the Living Tribunal didn't dare raise a finger to Beyonder,
yet, he disrespected Thanos and attacked him directly. 😛----------------------------------------------------
Btw, my friend, here's proof that the "enormous amount of energy"
:
Beyonder used to kill Miss Death,
was nothing more than [b]a Fraction of his power============================
Quan, our opinion on who wins between THOTI and Beyonder is for another thread,
but there's no need to reply to this particular since it's a fact and undebatable.(thread) ** Oh, and I agree, Beyonder wipes the floor with these Two idiots.
(heck, if Spectre and the LT can own them momentarily,
and inadvertently nearly obliterate them both) lol [/B]
Beyonder in character limited himself so that's the Beyonder we see take on Thanos. Beyonder without the self imposed limitation is speculative. No shame in being number 2 to Thanos with the heart.
Originally posted by quanchi112Beyonder in character limited himself so that's the Beyonder we
see take on Thanos.
That aside, Beyonder also appeared in Full power, so ...
Originally posted by quanchi112Beyonder without the self imposed limitation is
speculative.
A gap that's stretched "MillionS times" over!
Originally posted by quanchi112No shame in being number 2 to Thanos with the heart.
As in No shame in being number 2 to classic Beyonder. 😄
=========================
note * LOL! at the horse shit spread across the last two pages. 😂
(bah ... most of the thread for that matter)
